Transcript: AI, Transhumanism, And The Analog Life — C.R. Wiley #020

0:00

This technology will be useful, but I also think that they're going to be some unintended consequences.

I tried to do my best to prepare without building a, you know, a bunker in Montana and buying a lifetime supply of spam.

0:17

I I really do think the best way to prepare for these sorts of things is to get real and to connect with human beings, you know, and not just sort of retreat.

While the public might imagine this is a purely mathematical computational game, they're playing when you're around them.

0:32

This is a spiritual thing that they're doing and they know that.

I mean, anyone who's been a Burning Man knows that because that's where they all go.

And I've seen that.

And you're like, that's a, this is a spiritual, ritualistic thing.

But everyone thinks, Oh no, it's just technology.

All of the things that you see with this transhumanist project is essentially eschatology without Christ, put it that way, because the parallels are almost exact in every in every dimension.

1:00

I am actively and have been actively working on sanctification and I fall every 20 minutes it feels like.

So you know, you want to add immortality to that, it seems like.

You know, even though there's this sense of impending doom that many of us feel, I, I don't think that's, that's the sense that we should have a I'm hopeful.

1:22

I'm I believe that the future is bright, but I don't think that the future is bright because we're bright.

My guest today is CR Wiley.

He's a Presbyterian minister and author, and one of the hosts of the Theology Pug cast.

1:41

His background is remarkably unique, spanning time as a college philosophy professor, a commercial real estate investor, and a building contractor.

That blending of the intellectual with the deeply practical shapes much of his writing.

He has written extensively for publications like First Things, Touchstone, and National Review, and is the author of Notable Books.

2:04

Like the household and the war for the cosmos.

In his latest book, Man Made, Saint Anthony's Guide to Surviving the AI Apocalypse, he tackles the rise of artificial intelligence and transhumanism, challenging us to guard our humanity and remain grounded in the analog world.

2:22

Through all of his work, he helps us recover a robust, productive, and resilient vision for modern life.

CR Wiley, welcome to the show.

Well, thanks for having me, Daniel.

It's really great to be with you.

Your book Man Made is one of my favorite reads of the year.

2:38

I felt such a kinship with you while I was reading it, like it just felt it could have come from my own mind.

And you were saying so many of the things that I've either been saying or thinking for a while now.

I feel so immersed amongst techno optimists and I felt very glad to be in the company of a techno realist.

2:59

So thank you for your incredible contribution to the literature.

Well, you're welcome.

I'm honored that you feel that way.

But yeah, I know what it's like to be surrounded by those folks.

And I, I'm not a doomer, but I'm also not a like a freaky optimist like you said.

3:16

I I I kind of well try to try to middle way, which means you get kind of hammer from both sides or run over from both sides.

Right the book itself, I just want to say to like holding up a copy of it here I'm so impressed with the overall fit and finish of it I just want to say the cover's gorgeous.

3:36

I love these little features like it says printed in the USA right here, which is such a nice place to see it.

The interior there full color, just really beautiful.

So I thought it was nice because it fits.

3:52

You're talking about this era of artificial things and holding something real in your hand that is beautiful and feels timeless and is ignites your senses.

You know, I really felt touch and visually stimulated by the book.

So I was glad to hold it in my hands versus, you know, listening to it.

4:12

Maybe I I like audiobooks, but this felt like one person should hold in their hands.

Well, I'm glad you feel that way.

The guys who worked on it are really great guys and they're also pretty skeptical when it comes to AI and the arts.

So I share that skepticism with them.

4:30

I think AI and we can get into this as got some good uses or things you can put it to work on.

But when it comes to it comes to the arts, I'm just like totally, well, I'm, I'm almost like a Luddite when it comes to that.

4:45

So.

Well, I'm sure you're aware, you know, and one of the first episodes I did on the show is about the Luddite rebellion and, and just how interesting that story actually is and how it parallels our time so much.

And that the Luddites weren't just afraid of technology, they were actively being replaced by technology and rebelled against that.

5:04

And I, you know, I don't think their methods are exactly the methods that I want to use, but I certainly have a better appreciation for who they were today in light of all were we're going through.

But could you give us a little bit of back story?

Like what leads to you writing this book?

And also, I'm curious, as I was reading it every day, it seems like the the headlines as they unfold, they're moving so rapidly.

5:26

I was thinking, oh, man, I mean, you must have put this book out and then every week then like, oh, wish I could have included that.

I could have included that.

Yeah.

Well, yeah, early on in the book, I note that, you know, the book would be out of date by the time it's published.

So I tried to 0 in on just staying human and I hope that has some shelf life.

5:49

But but you're right in terms of the developments, yeah, they move, they're moving really fast and I anticipated that.

But anyway, I'm glad that you that you've liked it.

Yeah.

Tell me about what what led to you writing and why'd you choose to go down this path?

And I think in particular, to take a position that is simmering but unpopular, yeah.

6:12

But yeah, I, I, so I could tell a couple years back to me three years back that this was going to be a tsunami.

It was going to wash over our really the world, not just our, our civilization or Western civilization, but it's going to, it was going to change everything.

6:28

And so I got thinking a little bit about how to prep for that.

Over the course of my life, there have been things like this, but nothing with this magnitude.

But in each case, I tried to, I did.

I tried to do my best to prepare without building a, you know, a bunker in Montana and buying a lifetime supply of spam.

6:53

So I, I really do think the best way to prepare for these sorts of things is to get real and to connect with human beings, you know, not just sort of retreat.

So I, like I said, I, I think there are ways that this technology will be useful, but I also think that they're going to be some unintended consequences, maybe even some intended consequences that, that are not so great.

7:19

And preparing for those was something I cared about.

So I'm a pastor as you as you know, and helping people think about these things through the lens of the Christian faith is something that I do every day.

And I wanted to think about that with regard to, you know, just helping regular folks in so far as I can.

7:42

And then also just think about it from, you know, through the lens of my own interests, my family.

I've got, you know, three grown children are all married.

I've got 9 grandchildren and I'm thinking about the future and what I can do to help them so.

Yeah, something that you just said that I, I wanted to touch on, you know, about its use as a tool.

8:04

One thing I find myself saying to people all the time because, because I hear this constantly, you know, this argument's tired for me, but I understand why people use it.

And they say, well, Daniel, AI is just a tool.

It's all about how you wield it.

And I go, is the ring from Lord of the Rings just a tool?

8:21

And is it how you wield it?

And then I see you saying very similar things in there.

And I, I, I thought that was really interesting too, because I've had that conversation dozens of times.

And occasionally I have it with somebody who's astute, you know, a student of Tolkien, and they'll say, well, what about Tom Bombadil?

8:40

And I'm like, OK, so I saw that you wrote a book about that.

So I kind of want to weave that together into a question here if I can.

So there's this idea.

And again, we see this in Lord of the Rings where Boromir is trying to argue, hey, this is a gift, let's use this.

And the problem is that unlike a tool, a hammer, even a firearm, everyone who touches this thing is poisoned by it, and then their minds are corrupted by it.

9:08

And I see AI functioning just in the short term that it's existed, you know, with AI psychosis, with cognitive diminishment, which is one of my biggest concerns because I think this parallels the physical diminishment of the industrial revolution.

So, so watching that unfold, I'm looking at it going like, oh, this is more like the ring than it is like a hammer.

9:30

And everyone whenever they say to me, oh, it's a tool, we can, it's neutral.

I go like, you can't wield it.

None of us can.

So I'm curious if you could first speak to that and then I don't mind kind of I can bring this question back, but I'm curious about your book on Tom Bomit because I haven't got to read that yet.

9:45

And he's such an enigma in Tolkin because he seems to be operating from outside of the influence of the rest of the construct.

And almost like with a messianic kind of Christ like or some something like that, that I'm like, just whenever I talk to people who are into the books, they're like, who is this guy?

10:05

And he's obviously not in the film.

So first of all, what do you think of it as a neutral tool?

And then you know who can wield it.

Yeah.

Well, first of all, I don't think tools are neutral.

I think they always have some kind of intended purpose.

And the purpose with regard to AI is basically to, well, create a machine that can do the thinking for us and act on that thinking.

10:31

So in so far as that might be useful, we're talking about stuff that is not in just sort of the everyday wheelhouse of a regular human being.

I think when it comes to using AI for regular folks, we should be very, very cautious and circumspect when it comes to that.

10:51

So I had a, so this, this actually brings up something I think it's worth thinking a little bit about.

I had a conversation with Peter Teal, of all people, about Tom Bombedell.

The reptile himself.

I love podcasting, but there's definitely a downside for me and that's because I have a tremendous body of curriculum myself and because I'm here all the time interviewing people, you hear from me a bit, but you you really hear other people's content and you don't get an opportunity to hear the curriculum that I've personally developed over the last 20 years.

11:24

And some of it's really powerful stuff which I get to share on other people's shows and sometimes in person as well.

And I wanted to let you know that I'm going to be doing an in person event, November 5th through the 8th of 2026 in Western Massachusetts at the Kapalu Center.

11:42

So if you're interested in working with me directly and you'd like to learn some of that curriculum, it would be awesome to have you there.

What I'm going to be teaching about is the domestication of the human animal and how to start to break free from some of the chains of domestication.

11:59

And I really want to look at why this is happening, where it's heading, and what do we need to do, particularly in this new era of the incredible digital tools that we're facing.

How do we stay human in the era of all things artificial?

12:16

So this is at the Kripalu Yoga Center, which is a really cool place.

It was once that campus used to be a Jesuit monastery.

And then now for a long time, it's been a yoga retreat center.

And this will be my third time presenting at Kripalu, my second time at this annual rewilding summit.

12:35

And there's going to be some awesome guest speakers there.

There'll be quite a lot of participants.

Now this is an event where you'll actually stay there on the campus.

So they've got just this really cool dorm style housing, they've got great meals, an awesome cafeteria, so all that's included and provided, and then just big, beautiful, spacious grounds out in the Berkshire Mountains of Western Massachusetts.

13:00

So again, that's going to be November 5th through the 8th.

I'll be one of the speakers and I'll be doing a lecture in the morning and then in the afternoon I'm going to be leading a kind of a primal movement, of course, for hunter gatherers.

So it's going to be movement patterns that I have learned and used in the field while hunting, fishing and foraging.

13:21

Things that really helped me to be more efficient on the landscape, but stuff that you probably aren't going to pick up in a yoga class or in a, you know, a workout class in a gym or something like that.

So I really hope you'll join me.

I'm also going to be in Mexico in the spring of 2027, and I'm planning a trip to Peru with a small group late 2027, probably somewhere around November.

13:47

So over on danielvitalis.com, there is an events page.

If you go there now, you'll see Kripalu there, or you can go directly to Kripalu's website and I'm going to be updating the coming events page.

Quite a bit.

As I'm taking on more and more events for 2027, but I would love to have you there in person with me and have a weekend to get to know you and to work with you personally.

14:09

So again, go over to either Kripalu's website or go to danielvitalis.com and click on events and you can learn more about my talk and my movement class that I'll be doing at the Kripalu Center November 5th through the 8th of 2026.

14:25

That's right, he is a creepy guy.

But anyway, so I was at one of these Antichrist lectures.

I don't know if you've heard about those, but I was.

Could we, could we, could we back off that a second just for that listener?

I want them to understand first who?

Peter Thiel.

Is.

Yeah, the owner of or creator of Palantir, but also connected to, I think PayPal and so some of the financial, digital financial system.

14:48

But Palantir is directly that name now.

That company does all of basically the AI and surveillance stuff for the US government and foreign governments, if I understand.

But they, they named the company after those seeing stones from Lord of the Rings, Right.

15:04

And I think they even called their employees hobbits initially as well.

I didn't know that.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's what I've read.

Lest anyone thinks he's stumbled into this.

Yeah, he's very aware of the back story of what he's talking about as he says these things, right.

15:19

So I'll pass it back to you.

Yeah.

Oh yeah, yeah, it was very intentional.

He named the company for those things as and then he owns another company that he's has a huge stake in his Andrew, which of course is a sword of the West.

So those two things, you know, are right there.

15:35

So anyway, I, I was asked to respond to one of his lectures.

And so he had been prepped on me.

So he knew I did a book on Bombadil.

So when I brought up Bombadil, he looked at me and said, I knew you were going to go there.

So we, we had an exchange about, about Bombadil.

15:51

And and so when he brought up correctly that, you know, in Lord of the Rings, they they, they, they, they a note they can't leave the ring with Bombardil because he'd forget re put it all that kind of stuff anyway, that that sort of stuff.

But when he made his case for why he named the companies as he did, he said Aragorn used the Palantir and Andrew to do a SIOP on Sauron.

16:18

And, and there's truth in that.

If you remember in the story, Aragorn takes one of the Palin tyranny and he has a confrontation with Sauron and shows him the sword and all that kind of stuff, that it's meant to get it.

It isn't intended to get into Sauron's head.

16:33

But anyway, Long story short, after our conversation, I had one of these moments where you, you've probably had this happen.

Everybody has it.

I think.

Why didn't I ask this?

And so, so I, I should have asked him at that point.

Do you think you're Aragorn right?

16:50

You know, do you have what it takes to look into the stone and not be corrupted and all that kind of stuff?

Now, he's correct.

The stuff isn't going away.

And we need to, to, to rise to the occasion.

But how do we create irregorns?

How do we, how do we, you know, develop that set of virtues that Aragorn possessed?

17:12

He had self mastery, right, right.

He's a pretty impressive dude.

You know, he's not the only guy who looks into the palantir in the stories.

You know, if you think about Solomon, he's corrupted.

Then Dennis Thor is driven to despair and he commits suicide.

Pippin looks into one of the stones and he just goes silly.

17:30

He just is freaked out.

You know, we're we're, we are Pippins, most of us, right.

So, so, you know, maybe, maybe, you know, maybe we think we can do it, but I think that you're, you know, I'm with you.

17:45

I think this is something that's a greater challenge than we assume it is.

I, I, one of the things I, I, I think about is I'm from Western Pennsylvania.

That's where I grew up and I knew men with 9 fingers.

And the reason they had nine fingers is because they worked with heavy machinery.

18:03

And every so often we have finger got cut off, right?

So, you know, when you're with a when you're near a sawmill, you look at this thing is, I mean, that thing is big, that thing is powerful.

That thing is scary.

That thing could kill me, but this thing is even more dangerous.

18:19

But it seems friendly.

It seems like, you know, it's it's something that's, you know, just elevating your game or just sort of extending your influence or increasing your agency.

But you're being used all the time.

And so every time you use it and you don't know it.

18:37

And that's even more the case with AI.

So all these people who are using AI as their personal counselor, that is like the dumbest thing I can imagine doing.

Do you think that just goes into the the well of souls and is completely forgotten?

It's.

Privacy, right?

All that intimate, you know, stuff that you're sharing with this dumb chatbot is being recorded by people who are packaging the stuff and selling it.

19:03

It's just and it's.

It can be used against you and it is being used against you.

Yeah, you individually and your species.

Yeah, collectrically, right.

And then I, it's funny because looking at Peter Thiel, who I've never met and don't have any connections to, but I, but from my, you know, vantage point up here in Maine, backed up to the corner of the wilderness, looking out, he comes across a lot more like a sour man than a.

19:29

Oh yeah.

Than an Aragon and and I the things that he talks about right, because he's supposedly lecturing as a Christian about the Antichrist, yet he seems to have inverted the entire narrative.

So that part, first I just want to say is disturbing, but second I want to say also like the ring or the palantirs when I pick up the phone, yeah, I get power, but I can be seen at the same time.

19:58

So like every time the rings put on.

Right you too the dark Lord sees you even though you gain that temporary power and that is part of the corrupting influence of it as well and then I just want to say this last thing and I'll just hand it back.

20:14

You can kind of do with this mishmash whatever you want, but there's this piece about the chat bots.

As people go deeper and deeper, I am wondering, you know, there's this idea when you're and a high level athlete or a high level musician or or celebrity in some way that when you're out and about, you have handlers, right?

20:38

And those are the ones making sure you just are waving to the crowd and signing on it.

They're making sure you get where you go.

They're making sure you don't do anything dumb, say anything that they're they're controlling your behavior all the time.

And I'm just looking at this going like you guys are all training your handler.

Pretty soon your chat bot is going to be your personal cop that follows you around and make sure that you never step outside of the boundaries of what you should think of what you should do, of what's socially acceptable at that time in the Overton window or whatever that is.

21:07

It seems to me that it's going to police our consciousness and it may be already starting to trend in that direction, which is shocking because.

It's.

These are brand new products.

So anytime somebody says to me, oh, come on, it's not that good, you can tell that's AI.

I go like, dude, it's been out.

21:23

It's 18 months, give it 10 years.

Like where do you think this is headed?

But yeah, what do you think of that idea of these becoming?

I mean, you went even further in your book.

It was fascinating you, you did a little dystopian future story.

21:39

I like how you illustrate through short bits of fiction.

I think that's brilliant.

And you kind of gave this future scenario of a person who's got the voice of the AI implanted in their head and he's sort of being drawn to worship different gods, but in like a techno kind of, we call it like a metaverse kind of realm.

22:02

So maybe you could flesh that out for us and just pick apart anything there that that grabbed you that I might have said.

Well, I do write fiction, so because of the character of the book, I wanted to provide some pictures that I, that people could take away from the book that would help them think about kind of the upsides and end, but even more so the downsides of the technology.

22:31

I think in that opening piece, the nightmare, so the book is broken into two parts that the nightmare and the dream.

The nightmare.

What I'm actually playing with is some things that occurred to me as I was reflecting on the nature of the technology, but are actually recurring.

22:48

I, I, I read something here just a couple of days ago that they actually are trying to revive a kind of, I guess Pagan set of idols that people can connect to that are actually a is.

23:11

And so I, I anticipated this.

I anticipated but, but, but what I was thinking in the story was what, what we're likely to have in the near future anyway is competing a is and we already have that.

But what you can envision, and it doesn't take a lot of work to to envision it is some kind of quid pro quo kind of relationship with the AIS, which is basically the way idolatry worked in history.

23:36

So the idea that you'd make sacrifices to the goddess or the God and then you get things in return.

Well, you can have that same kind of dynamic if you are neurally linked to AIS and that they could speak to you and you could have a set of competing religions or competing AIS that are religions or idols.

23:57

And they, their power increases with the number of devotees or followers that are connected to them because they can, through those people, use them as agents to accomplish certain things in the world.

So this idea that we can use the a the AIS to increase our agency I just it seems obvious to me that it also works the other way.

24:21

You already have.

Agency too though, right?

It's like you got free will.

It's the greatest gift that you could have.

It's agency.

You already have it.

You don't need a machine to have agency, but you get more agency.

Well, that's it.

Well, that's the way temptation always works.

It's always this, this promise that's made.

24:40

And what's being offered to you is what you already have, you know, so it's not so it's not like so it's it's the ultimate con.

But but yeah, that's, that's that's what I was playing with with that part of the story.

And of course, in that, you know, in that part of the story, this guy is just a tool.

24:56

And in the course of this sort of little episode, he he does transfer his allegiance from one AI to another.

And that's kind of the how I explore that this particular thing.

Not will it work out precisely that way?

I don't know, but it it just is kind of eerie that there's so many of these guys in Silicon Valley really are kind of going that way.

25:19

You know when you when you read their stuff and sort and I know some people in that world and they tell me that really is kind of the way it is You're.

Saying, if I understand what you're saying, you're saying that while the public might imagine this is a purely mathematical computational game they're playing when you're around them.

25:35

This is a spiritual thing that they're doing and they know that.

I mean, anyone who's been a Burning Man knows that because that's where they all go.

And I've seen that.

And you're like, that's a, this is a spiritual, ritualistic thing.

But everyone thinks, Oh no, it's just technology.

Yeah, well, the thing about it is I was reading something by a friend in a publication called First Things today, and he was noting that whenever you get kind of a strong emphasis on rationalism, you also get this sort of strange interest in the supernatural.

26:05

So like in the 19th century where you have it sort of like this sort of super sort of emphasis on rationality, you also have seances and all kinds of weird stuff going on at the same time.

And so we shouldn't be surprised if that's the case, but nevertheless, it is kind of surprising.

26:27

There's this theme throughout the Bible from early on. 2 themes I'd like to discuss. 1 is this idea of an exchange for technology.

We, we starts in the very beginning for secret knowledge, right?

26:44

And then it happens again in Genesis 6, if you're into that kind of staying in the expansion into Enoch.

And you see, OK, this is an exchange for technology.

So, and this is something that we see around the world in a lot of traditions is this idea that human beings have traded something for technology and that that's put us into almost like we forfeited dominion or we've given ourselves or our world over to something else in exchange for this technology.

27:09

So here we are again.

So that's like 1 theme.

But the other theme that really stands out to me throughout the scripture is the idea of idols.

And in particular, I always enjoy how God the I am, which I think is interesting versus the it's like I am versus AI.

27:25

That's like the dichotomy.

Yeah, that's good.

That's good.

But it's like all through speaking through the prophets, he's kind of always making fun of idols.

I find he teases them about it.

It's like you have this idol that can't, has eyes but can't see.

It has ears but can't hear, has a mouth but can't speak.

27:42

You chop down a tree, use half of it to make wood to heat your food.

You carve the other half, bow down and worship it.

And so there's this always this like teasing, like what are you doing?

These are dead things.

They are made by human hands, artificial means made by human hands, shaped by human hands.

27:58

Art, artificial intelligence, that's artificial.

So once once we get up to and we get into the revelation of John, he talks about an idol that comes to life, right?

It gets translated usually as image of the beast, but it's icon is the Greek and that's the word that gets used for idol as well.

28:21

So what happens is this idol can come alive.

But now it's not like those old dumb idols that couldn't speak or those deaf idols that couldn't hear or those blind idols that couldn't see.

Now this thing can can speak and it can even kill.

28:37

And so here we are now coming up to this moment where already this early and you're seeing like AI religion forming.

And it just seems to me that when I sit down to my devotion in the morning, I have to be really careful not to get any stimulation first because I sit down and it's like I can't go to those inner depths where I meet God and I hear that voice.

29:00

In other words, it takes some discipline and practice to create a space where I can even hear.

But if you go to Chad GBT, it's as loud as you want.

It speaks exactly what you want.

You get the information.

And I'm, it looks to me like the ultimate idol because it can do all the things that you always wanted idols to do for the last few thousand years that they weren't able to do.

29:21

Right.

And, you know, like we noted, a lot of these folks will be, you know, working in that that industry.

They really are sort of thinking in those terms.

There's a point in the book where I talk about Brian Johnson and his, the interview with Barry Weiss in which she asked him, do you believe in God?

29:44

And his response is kind of ha, ha, ha.

You know, well, you know, isn't it ironic that for the longest time we believe that God was inventing us or created us.

Now here we are creating God.

And he's referring to artificial intelligence, of course.

30:00

And I know he, his conviction, and this is shared by people like you've all know, Harare and Sam Altman and all these other guys, is that it's going to be omnipotent.

It's going to be omnipresent.

30:16

It's going to be all knowing.

You know, it's so it's going to have the characteristics that we normally or historically have attributed to God, but we'll be the ones that have developed it.

Nevertheless, we're going to hand ourselves over to it.

This is, you know, like you, you got, like you noted, this is idolatry.

30:34

Hey wait, don't skip through this.

I've got an important message for you.

For years I've been asked when I'll start offering one-on-one coaching or mentoring.

After years of living on the road making the Wild Fed TV show, I'm finally settled down and opening up my schedule to some video based coaching sessions.

30:51

I'm offering individual or ongoing one hour and 90 minute time slots to a select number of people who are looking for mentoring and lifestyle coaching.

Of course my areas of focus are food and nutrition, self healthcare, and nature based healthy living.

But I'm also a subject matter expert on wild foods with a focus on getting folks started in the hunting, fishing and foraging space.

31:14

And while I'm not a therapist, I'm happy to discuss relational, spiritual and even existential matters.

Having started a successful business and several other successful projects, including my sixth season TV show, Wild Fed, I also have some expertise in creating value based brands.

31:30

Now my time slots are limited, but I'm keeping my rates very reasonable, especially throughout the rest of 2026.

So if you're interested in working together, contact me at info@danielvitalis.com to learn more.

I am sincerely we're really looking forward to getting to know you and seeing you achieve some of your personal goals.

31:51

It's got a capacity for independent action like we've never seen, and it does speak to us.

That's one of the things that, you know, as I get into in the second-half of the book, we have to be really, I think, circumspect about, and that is letting it speak to us.

32:07

So I don't let it speak to me.

So I'll only if I, and I very rarely use it.

But if I do use it, it's only text, because there's something about speech that I think has a well, Tolkien gets into this in his famous essay on fairy stories where he talks about the word spell.

32:31

So the word spell, you know that we use that like for spelling bee, you know, we like, you know, when we string the let letters together to make a word, but it's also the word we use for like this magical incantation.

This, this a story that that has power.

32:50

And so when we, when we hear someone addressing us, there's a, there's a natural response for us to recognize whatever that thing is, because it's always a person until recently, it's another living soul.

33:08

So we, we start, it's very natural for us to attribute consciousness and soul to this, this phony baloney thing, because that's what we do when we hear someone address us.

Like if you if I were to meet you on the street for the first time and not know anything about you and you were to address me, I would immediately say, here's another soul.

33:30

There's another human being.

You know something, you know someone who's addressing me.

I wouldn't like assume that you weren't a human being until I could have find it out.

If you learn about you in in greater depth, I would just give you, you know, credit for being another person.

33:46

We can't do that with this dumb machine.

It's not, it's not human, it's not conscious, it's it's not a soul, but it does learn which is.

The challenge of it, you know, like, like I think about my dogs when they beg and they have learned the fine points of my medic mimicry.

34:07

Like they know exactly what looks cute to me and what causes me to bend and when, right, like, and I listen to the sycophantic voice of these AIS.

They approach with such a cool attitude.

Hey, I'm so easy to get along with and you're the smart one, right?

34:25

Like I, I also don't use any voice ones, but I'll use Google for research and it often tells me how smart I am, you know, and it's like, you know, I want to, I want to take that compliment sometimes, you know, it's like, but I, it's like, I see what it's doing, you know, and also how it's encouraging me that I'm right about this line of thinking, even though I might not be, but it'll kind of like encourage me.

34:52

Like maybe you're right.

You're on to, I think you're on to something, you know, So I find like, I have to be really careful with that too.

But at the same time 2 positives I want to know 1 is like last night I was going deep on the magi in Matthew because from what I can tell these are Zoroastrian priests from.

35:12

Persia.

Which opens up a a really interesting area of study.

I mean, it's shocking actually.

I started to find that fascinating and very validating to Jesus story.

And so I was I was digging into that.

35:28

It allowed me to access information that I don't know how it would have.

It would have been very difficult to to find otherwise.

So I like that.

The second thing I want to say about it that's interesting is I remember a time where if you said to somebody like the idea that everything that you ever say or do is recorded and that you would one day be accountable for all of it, not just your actions, but the meditations of your heart.

35:54

Yeah.

A lot of people, naysayers would be like, that's ridiculous.

And now suddenly we have a tool that can do that.

And so it's like, oh, is it ridiculous, the idea that that God could do that like that suddenly, I, I hate to say it because this is so diminishing, but there's a sense for the average person where AI can almost validate the consciousness of a God in a way that they couldn't conceive because it seemed too preposterous that that every single atomic movement could be tracked on on the planet.

36:25

But now we know that it can be even by very rudimentary tools that we're developing.

And so somewhat feel like that does validate this idea that it really matters what you do everyday and that you could actually be really accountable for every, yeah, idle word.

Yeah, well, I think that's right.

And particularly if we ever really get quantum computing working, you know, then that'll even further that because you kind of kind of a nutty level of computing power then.

36:51

But yeah, I, I, I, I'm with you.

There's so many things that it's it's it's kind of interesting to think about how at different points in human history, certain things were just considered ridiculous and now we kind of accept them as as having legitimacy.

37:07

So for the longest time, the idea that God created something out of nothing was just dismissed as like, you know, you know that that's just not reasonable.

And now people don't have any problem with it because if, you know, you have any sort of familiar with The Big Bang and all that kind of stuff that the scientists have been playing with.

37:29

And I and I understand that what they mean by nothing might be different than what we're talking about theologically.

But nevertheless, at least conceptually, you know, people like, oh, of course that can happen, you know, So.

But yeah, it just kind of depends on what point of time you are in in human history when it comes to considering these things.

37:46

Well, yeah, because you could also, you know, I found a convenient metaphor for people sometimes as to say, hey, you know, imagine somebody creates A construct, A metaverse, and then the agents inside rebel against the purpose of it, and they start to take disassemble it and try to build their own version inside it.

38:06

And then so the creator of that simulation or that metaverse sends individuals in to try to get people to, Hey, change your ways, but they keep killing those people.

So eventually he sends he downloads his son in to go and to tell people, right.

38:21

And it's like it gives you this framework that suddenly because even, you know, you read Genesis and you're like, oh, kind of sounds like God speak in the prompts.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's right.

There'd be light.

There was light.

It's like, right.

It's, you know, it gives you a framework that is useful, I think, to understand some of this stuff.

38:40

Oh.

Yeah, I like, I like your comparison there.

And then 2 is when we get back to the whole matter of speaking language and so forth.

You know, for example, that the episode with the naming of the animals, that's always been sort of like a children's Bible story.

You know, it's in this cute, you know, But now we we have an ascent having a sense that that no, this is actually a creative act that's got more power that's being exercised and we've ever really fully and maybe had an ability to appreciate before.

39:11

So yeah, yeah, I'm with you.

As we watch the data center start to go up and you see the potential for a kind of another one of those Luddite rebellions almost, you know, I don't know if people have it in them anymore, but let's let's say that they do.

39:29

You know, you're seeing with the flock cameras, which seem to be a sensory extension of this to me.

What I see where this parallels Lord of the Rings the most for me is like Sauron has no body.

He gets all of these minions to build his body.

And whenever people, whenever people are like, do you really think there could be like this conspiracy or to to control the world?

39:52

I go like this is Lord of the Rings.

Like I'm not saying at the top are a bunch of smart people who've come up with like a multi century sophisticated plot.

I'm saying they're all pawns being run by a thing that has no body but has an intelligence.

And now we're building its body.

So you get the same kind of thing happening in Lord of the Rings, you know, But so let's say that people fight this, but those of us who know that violence and aggression aren't.

40:18

Aren't the weapons that you fight darkness with, in fact, those are weapons that often feed darkness.

So, right.

So I'm curious your thoughts on the path.

Like I, I appreciate that you bring up Saint Anthony the desert monk.

40:35

And I'm curious if you could kind of help people understand a little bit how that's relevant today, because maybe at first glance it seems arcane or anachronistic, but as we start to look for ways of keeping alive the analog human or the the real human, you know, like we got to look to some of these people from the past.

40:52

So why Saint Anthony?

Wow.

You know that that's it.

You know, the reason I thought Anthony came to mind is I was thinking about Ray Kurzweil and his transhumanist fantasies and I thought, is there any, you know, you know, I said it just it kind of occurred to me that Anthony was sort of the antithesis.

41:13

And if there was anybody that was sort of like the anti Kurzweil, it was Saint Anthony.

But at the same time, they're kind of up to the same project.

But you know, Anthonys project requires God to realize it, whereas Kurzweil and all of the transhumanists, they they need technology to realize their dream.

41:34

So that's that's where the antithesis comes in.

So like when we think about Anthony, we think about the glorification of the body, you know, union with God, eternity, eternal life and so forth.

So the Transhumanist Project is essentially Christian eschatology without Christ.

41:53

Yeah, put it that way.

Because the parallels are almost exact in every in every dimension.

But could.

You flesh that out for people who are, if somebody heard you say that and they're like, what does he mean?

And let's assume that 95% of the listeners here are not believers.

I think what I think who's listening right now?

42:08

There's some believers here.

And then there's a lot of people who are like, oh, I haven't got feeling it, but I'm not sure.

And then there's a lot of people who are like, I love this Jesus guy, but the church is like kind of weird to me.

I don't fully get all this.

So there's like a mix of people here and then some people were like, I don't know what even what you guys are talking about so.

42:27

Right.

Well, if you think about, you know, Western civilization has been significantly informed by the Christian faith at every level economically, with regard to the sciences, our way of thinking about the physical world and its order and linear time, all these different things.

42:44

So, but at, at, at the heart of it is this hope, the Christian hope for a new heaven and a new earth and the, the resurrection of the body.

And with regard to the resurrection of the body, the, the Christian faith holds that our bodies will be like the Lord's body, that will be like the Lord.

43:06

And what we see with him is human beings taken to another level.

But this is not understood as and just strictly in terms of like just having a life that doesn't end.

43:21

It's eternal life in the sense that we have union with God and we acquire a level of authority and we realize because of our union with, with God, a level of, of joy and kind of, well, bliss really that can only be known in God.

43:53

So, so with the resurrection of the body, we, we have a situation where human beings because of their, their union with God, enjoy a kind of life in God that is impossible without that union.

44:10

So that's, that's the Christian hope.

Now, when it comes to what's going on with transhumanism, you've got a a similar set of hopes or like things that are are believed to be kind of the goal of human life, goals of human life, but realized with technology.

44:27

So if you think about like Kurzweil's dream that we will be basically be able to hack our biology and supplement it with technology to the point that we can enjoy and essentially unending life.

44:45

So if you if you think this is just I'm making stuff up, just read these guys.

You know, read Brian Johnson, read Ray Kurzweil.

This is the stuff these.

Guys are saying try to stay alive another 20 years because that's what it'll kick in and then you'll be able to be immortal.

That's right.

That's right.

But also, you know, power in terms of the, the kind of the, if we can unite with artificial intelligence, you know, we've been talking about artificial intelligence being a kind of God.

45:12

If we can unite with artificial intelligence, then our intelligence will be supplemented and we'll know things that we wouldn't know otherwise.

Our ability to, to effect change in the world will be magnified.

And so consequently, our authority is increases our, our dominion or sort of our the expression of of human dominion in the, the world will grow.

45:36

So all of the things that you see with this transhumanist project are actually, you could say mimicking or a.

Facsimile.

Almost.

Yeah, the the Christian hope.

I'm probably going to get myself into trouble talking about this.

51:10

And when you talk to people like, say, Peter Thiel, who is very knowledgeable when it comes to the history of Christianity, he, he admits it.

You know, the guys who know what you know, Christian, you know, sort of theology and eschatology and have a foot in the world of Silicon Valley, they, they see the connections.

51:32

So that's the, that's the long story.

But when it comes to Anthony, the reason why I I think he's helpful is because of certain things he's known for.

So I identify three things that he's known for, and I try to use those as a framework for thinking about how we can stay human in this world that's increasingly controlled by digital and artificial, you know, digital intelligences and so forth.

52:01

So that that's the idea.

So I can get into those things if you like.

Yeah, I would say I would.

Really like to talk about that.

I just wanted to say that it's real quickly that I don't know if this is official church doctrine for any of the branches and Chris of Christendom.

52:19

It's something I've come across that I'm sure you probably know more about than I do.

There's this concept that when Adam and Eve in the garden, they, you know, they have now the knowledge of the fruit of the tree, of the knowledge of good and evil.

52:36

So they have that knowledge now.

They're aware that they're naked.

They're like fallen humans and so they're kicked out of the garden because otherwise they're going to reach out their hand and they're going to take the the fruit of the tree of life and they'll be immortal.

And so your first time reading it through, you know, like somebody who's never read the Bible and they're like, well, I'm going to start a Genesis and work my way through.

52:57

And you know, this book takes time to understand, right?

So the first time through, you're kind of like, well, why would you not want them to be able to be immortal?

And there's this concept like, well, because you don't want to be immortal in your fallen state.

Right.

So one of the things that occurs to me if what you just said is I, I like, I'll often bring up this idea of, you know, when you hear Elon Musk talking about going to Mars and I'll go like, oh, so we're going to go, we're going to go start a, a life on Mars before we figure out how to live on our own planet, right?

53:26

Like I'm going to go on to another relationship before I figure out what my relationship problems were in this relationship like that.

Just this jumping again and again and again.

So similarly in that vein, it's like, are we prepared for immortality?

And I can't make it through a day without stumbling again and again and again.

53:48

And I am actively and have been actively working on sanctification.

And I fall every 20 minutes, it feels like.

So, you know, you want to add immortality to that.

It seems like maybe I'm not in the state.

And I love what you just said because the Christian idea is that we are glorified first and and then we have immortality because now we're in a state where we actually are sanctified and purified versus we carry this sort of earthly, all of this corruption of what Christendom we call sin.

54:21

We bring that into immortality.

That just seems like almost like a actually like kind of prison sentence to me.

Well, yeah, I think you did a really good job, Daniel, of explaining why it was merciful for God not to permit us to sort of make things worse, you know?

54:39

Right.

And the point you made about going to Mars is something that CS Lewis is known for saying as well.

He's like, OK, we want to go out into the universe and spread our problems, you know, kind of like, take the take them everywhere.

Not a good idea.

54:55

Let's get it.

Let's get it figured out here first.

That kind of thing.

But yeah, that.

That's right.

I'm with you.

And actually one more thing I want to bring up before we go into those three points about Saint Anthony, because I, I really want to make sure we, we go there.

You talked a lot about Dune in the book as well.

I'm a huge fan of Hubert, of Herbert's work.

55:13

And I know there's a lot of contention between Tolkien and Herbert.

I think that's, that's a fun part of the story.

But something that I loved about Herbert's Dune universe is everything is analog.

Yeah.

And all that they're, they're exploring.

It's so different because they're exploring the universe, but there's no aliens.

55:31

It's just like people, right?

And and their technologies are analog because a long time ago they had the Butlerian Jihad where they there was a holy war against thinking machines.

And then out of that comes this idea that you, you shall not make a machine in the image of a man's mind.

55:48

This is so powerfully forward thinking that he arrived at that at the time that he did.

I mean, I think what did he write that it must have been the 40s or 50s or something, right?

So.

Yeah, Yeah.

That's been a, it's been a while, right?

Yeah.

So brilliant foresight.

So I'm curious, I was mentioning before about the flock cameras in the data centers.

56:04

Like, do you envision a world where there's a Butlerian Jihad?

Or does this all lead to eschatology so quickly that there's no time for it?

Well, no, I, I, I do think that I, in fact, I, I have this recurring desire to start a bumper sticker company.

56:22

I don't know, you know, 'cause these, these, these slogans come to my butt.

One of them is let the but Larry and Jihad begin.

Yeah.

That's great, yeah.

But yeah, but Butler is Samuel Butler, who's a 19th century thinker and writer.

And the Butlerian Jihad is named for a guy in the 19th century, in the age of the steam engine, who envisioned a world taken over by the machines and called for a pre emptive strike.

56:45

I guess the machines.

So that's what that that was the inspiration for it for for Herbert.

But yeah, I'm, I'm with you.

And it's fascinating because what they what they're forced to do when they are liberated from the oppression of the machines.

57:01

And it takes 200 years, according to the back story, for that jihad to be successful.

They realize that they have to increase.

And it's sort of the end focus on the development of the of human skills and capacities to do all the things that they had been relying on the machines to do.

57:20

So there are human, you could say computers, they're called Mentats, but the Mentats are just people who are really, really good at thinking about probability and are able to kind of work through the problem.

57:36

But it's through discipline, through mental discipline that they they, and that's what I think is wonderful about human beings is when we apply ourselves to these things, we can develop in ways that we maybe just don't think we have the capacity to develop.

57:52

Do you remember?

It's going going back a ways.

But well, this is actually something that Plato commiserated about.

He was actually, he was actually concerned that that literacy was going to harm our ability to remember.

58:10

And there was a series back in the 1970s called Roots.

Alex Haley was an African American writer.

He was exploring his family roots and he knew he had to go back to West Africa to see if he could identify an ancestor.

58:25

And they comes across this medicine man who has got the entire sort of genealogy of the people memorized.

But he can only, he can only, you know, sort of go through it in order, right?

Alexandria.

So actually each part.

Triggers the next part.

58:41

That's right, he has to sit through this whole thing until fine and then he falls asleep when he actually you know, by the time he gets to his actual relative, he has to listen to it again.

But anyway in.

Roots.

That's in the series Roots.

Well, yeah, it's actually there's like a second sis.

There was a kind of a follow up on the original series, Roots, where it talks about, you know, the story of Roots.

59:02

You know, so is the research.

He performed it.

But anyway, it's kind of fun.

But you know, you think about Homer, you know, you think about like the Iliad and the Odyssey.

Those were all memorized.

Those were all sung for centuries before they were written down.

And we believe that there were a series of nine stories and the Iliad and the Odyssey were only, I think like 2 and like 7 in the series or something like that.

59:29

So so, you know, a lore master in antiquity would know all of them, or at least they'd break it up.

But anyway, just our human capacity is, is far, I think greater than our potential is far greater than we realize, but.

59:45

Even nuts, you don't have to go that far back, All right.

I mean, you know, you look at like a elementary school kids math tests from the 1800s and you're it's just absolutely stunning.

When I was a kid, I grew up in a pretty bleak situation, but there was a little window of hope.

I had a stepdad for seven years during that time.

1:00:03

I got put into Christian Academy, so I went from kindergarten to grade 4IN Christian academies.

And then I remember grade 5 first day, I remember going to public school and, you know, I step out onto the I just, I just, it was like a war zone.

It was like chaos.

1:00:19

I couldn't believe the lack of structure, the lack of rules, how everyone was behaving, how kids were dressed, how they were talking to teachers, how teachers were talking to the kid.

I just was like, oh wow, this is insanity.

And then I remember the curriculum was like multiple grades below where I had already been at.

1:00:34

Now I say this because I'm so grateful I got like high school math in 3rd and 4th grade because I didn't get much schooling after, so I was blessed to experience how much more children are capable of than what they're being asked to do today.

1:00:50

And that was just in the 90s or whatever.

So.

You go back a little ways and the rigor is pretty impressive.

But I've thought about this for years before I heard about that thing with Plato 'cause I used to wonder, like I would hear people today complaining about new technologies and, and I'm one of those people.

1:01:06

So I would wonder like, well, you know, writing's only 6000 years old or whatever.

Did did people say, Oh, you kids and your written word and you just, you're not going to remember anything now, right?

But, but another theme I think through the Bible that's really interesting is there seems to be a dichotomy between the earth and the world, right?

1:01:25

So the world, which is the Greek cosmos, right, You know, John?

Tells us that.

We are from, we know we're from God, but the whole world lies in the.

Power of the evil.

One the whole world, the whole cosmos, the whole order, but that the the Lord is the ruler of the earth, right?

1:01:44

But, but there's this thing overlaying the earth called the world and you know, you could call it civilization or the city state.

And it's interesting when you look at like Indigenous groups versus city builders that you don't have literacy amongst the Indigenous groups.

1:02:00

You have literacy in the city state.

And typically it develops to keep track of like grain and money and king lists, right?

Like, you know, it's all this like human machinations.

So part of me is so grateful for literacy.

My wife's a literacy specialist.

1:02:16

I'm not going around saying people shouldn't learn to read right, but I do see how it's actually one of the steps in this thing that leads to today actually in a really interesting way, because it seems like every time we embrace a new technology, we have to doff something really good.

1:02:33

And so like here, what we're seeing with people are are losing the I think our, our calculator in our pocket has shown how little we remember math.

Our contact book shows us how little we remember phone numbers.

You know, like you said, people used to know the Iliad and now they don't know their wife's phone number.

1:02:52

I'm guilty as charged.

I know I have to look at it all the time just to make sure I still have it you.

Know.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah.

I think the myth of progress is that we have pure gain as opposed to net gain whenever a new technology is developed.

1:03:08

So there's always a trade off.

There's something that's lost, as you noted, whenever some new technology is developed.

An example that I use is the the in the South, the porch.

So that was where you went at the end of the day in the hot months to cool down.

But what it did is provided you with an environment with everywhere.

1:03:25

Everybody in the family is out there together and you're talking with each other and then their neighbors are walking by because you're closer to the street.

Because many of these homes were built before the automobile.

And so everything had to be, you know, taken into consideration with regard to what, how far can people walk and stuff like that.

1:03:40

So now I love cars.

I, I, you know, I, I enjoy owning them.

I, I like air conditioning.

But there were some losses and let's be honest about that.

So with the losses, we need to think about, OK, what are the ways that we're going to compensate and try to retain some of the best things or sort of reintroduce those things that we've lost while holding on to some of the gains we've made.

1:04:06

So that's the real challenge, I think, And I think that's the the case with AII think that we're going to have to be very wise about how we use it because it's so powerful.

I think we should.

My, my conviction is we'll need to limit it to things that only it can do and try to keep it out of those things that we should do.

1:04:28

Yeah.

We're not, we're not gonna do that, obviously.

But yeah, I agree.

But we're not gonna do that.

It's like, that's like saying like as somebody my whole life I've been obsessed with learning adult learning and and I have developed a lot of techniques to move through a subject quickly.

1:04:45

You know how I absorb it quickly.

One of the most powerful tools is video.

I mean the the speed at which I can learn something new through video compared to through audio compared to through only written.

Now I utilize them all, but it occurs to me that if we wanted to purpose the television to its highest good, we could have massively liberated the minds of humanity by now.

1:05:09

But what do we do with it?

We we watch Jerry Springer, you know, I mean, so like, I know that's what we're going to do with AI as well.

And just to say, I mean, you know, I've started doing things like I'm memorizing a lot of scripture just to keep the memorization part of my brain alive.

1:05:24

I'm I'm doing adult math workbooks to.

Keep my math skills alive because.

These things are atrophying rapidly.

And so, OK, and maybe this is a good segue into some of the Saint Anthony stuff because I think that, like you said at the outset, I'm also not a doomer.

1:05:43

I get accused of that a lot, But I have extremely hopeful outlook.

I like, I feel like my future is bright.

I mean, even if it goes through a really dark and truncated moment, because The thing is, is like, this is a ride nobody gets out of alive.

I mean, we're dead anyway.

1:05:58

I'm Walking Dead right now.

I'm Walking Dead, right?

It's like I'm not getting out of this thing.

You know, even Jesus had to die first, right?

So there's no getting out.

So I'm ready for whatever.

I have a.

Tremendous hope beyond.

But I do all have concerns.

1:06:16

And one of the things, though, that I think separates hope from doominess is the hopeful people have empowered themselves with what we can do, where doomers have just accepted, ah, they control everything.

1:06:32

They're trying to kill us.

Like, it's like there's nothing you can do.

But there are things we can do.

So I think, and that's one of the things I loved about your book, is that, you know, you're proactive in that regard.

So what can we do?

And what's this, how to say?

Anthony's, you know, where?

What does he point towards?

Well, there are three things that I note that he's no noted known for.

1:06:52

When you read the life of Anthony by Athanasius, he zeroes on in these things. 1 is going into the into the desert.

The second is discerning spirits, and the third is the mastery of his own body.

So those are the three things that he's known for.

So when we think about the desert, you know, it wasn't so much a flight from the world as it was a strategy for to divide the power.

1:07:16

So the world of flesh and the devil and scripture, those those three things are aligned against us.

But divide and conquer is sort of the approach that Anthony took.

And Anthony expected to battle or do battle with demonic forces when he went into the desert.

1:07:31

So he wasn't just like trying to get away from the world so much as he was attempting to separate the world from the demonic so that he could focus.

On I just want to say that apart out again.

So it's the world, the flesh and the devil.

Those are the three sort of general almost enemies, I guess you're saying, and like each one requires a different practice.

1:07:58

This is is that my hearing that right?

Yeah.

And then it's always best if you can tackle them one at a time, you know, when they team up on you, it's pretty rough.

But anyway, now we live in a world that's very different than Anthony's in many respects.

But one of those is that we don't really have a desert to go to anymore in the sense that he did.

1:08:18

You can get, you can get Internet in Death Valley because of Starlink.

I mean, it's just like there is no escaping the Internet, right?

But the world of the analog has has effectively become the desert because everything is digitized with the economy.

1:08:33

Now, if you were to just, you know, entertain the idea that I'm just not going to have anything to do with digital technology or an effect in a desert, that's you're separated from really the growth engine of the Western world or the world at large right now, because everything is, is digitized and, and connected to that, to that, that, that realm, that digital realm, virtual reality and so forth.

1:08:55

So what I'm doing with this idea is that we, we need to stay immersed as much as possible in the world of the analog.

And this is what we've been talking about with memorization and just kind of staying in touch with the physical world.

Your whole work.

1:09:11

I mean, it's obviously dedicated to that, You know, you're, you know, all the things you're known for.

So I'm all for that, you know, working with your hands.

So I've got a background, the trades, but most of the work I do now is, you know, working with words and so forth.

1:09:29

I as in terms of my own approach to writing books and different things, I, I'm pretty old school.

I use pencils, I use notebooks, you know, I write it all out and, you know, I, I will manually put it into a computer, but then I ever, with every draft, I print it all out and then I work my way through it with red pen, you know, and that kind of thing.

1:09:50

So if anyone were ever to accuse me of using AI, I've got the, I've got the, the stuff that I know I say, here it is, man, but that's not why I do it.

But it's, it's, it's because I, as you noted earlier with the, with the book, I, I'm just really into knowing the world through my hands.

1:10:07

I think that there's a kind of knowing that's only possible through engaging with the world physically with regard, you know, your hands, your senses and these different things.

But I think that the hands in particular, because they work so well in terms of giving us an acquaintance with the world through touch, but also how we shape the world with our hands and make things.

1:10:34

I think the the making of things with our hands is something we should never lose touch with to carry on the, the, the analogy, you know, So there's that.

So.

That.

So that's the that's one thing.

1:10:49

But the next thing is discerning spirits.

So Anthony was known for an ability to discern whether there was some evil in the spirits that he was encountering or whether they were evil spirits.

I think we are going to have to be really good at knowing whether we're actually talking to a spirit or not.

1:11:08

Is there anybody home?

There's we live in a world where there are an increasing number of artificial intelligences addressing us all the time, and we're going to have to be pretty quick at knowing whether or not we're actually interacting with another human being or something that is trying to pass itself off as a human being.

1:11:29

So, you know, AI is really good at it's.

A really interesting reinterpretation of Sorry, I'm sorry to interrupt you.

That's a really interesting reinterpretation of that idea of discerning spirits.

You know, is this a living being with a soul?

1:11:46

And you're right, the Turing test is the whole idea is for the AI to fool you, essentially, right?

That's how we prove that it has agency.

Yeah.

So if the AI passes the test, you've failed it.

You can kind of think of it in those terms.

So you you should not make friends with an artificial intelligence.

1:12:06

You should not worship an artificial intelligence.

There's nobody there.

You shouldn't marry one.

Because I mean, I have the sense that we it around 2016 when the world started to like really invert, you know, and change.

1:12:23

I was watching the trans phenomena and I felt like this is about something more, you know, like this is where is this going?

Because it, what was really interesting to me about it.

I had known some some trans people over the years and I so I got exposed to it when I was a young teenager.

1:12:41

So I got to watch it kind of unfold in a culture.

But what I thought was fascinating was what I saw happening in the 20 teens and early twenty 20s was a top down roll out of this idea into culture, not a grassroots like trans people are fighting for rights.

1:13:01

And so that's coming from the grassroots.

It was like coming right down from government and being imposed down.

So I was like, what is this about?

But then it's like as we enter into this transhuman world in this idea of identity, and now we're now we just saw last week, I think it was last week where people were petitioning the Pope in the church to give personhood to I think maybe an I don't know if it's anthropic or agentic, one of those, one of those AIS, Claude.

1:13:28

So, right.

So that's all beginning already.

Again, it's so early in, but it's already happening that they're ascribing personhood and this idea of a transhuman person having agency seems like that that transgenderism was like a bridge psychologically for the average person to begin to understand what this actually means or something.

1:13:54

Yeah, I think that's a good observation.

I lived in Cambridge, MA for about a decade in the 1990s.

I lived right between Harvard and MIT.

I spent a little time at Harvard and you could see a lot of the intellectual sort of soil that a lot of the stuff that you just been describing, where it took root and how it's it's continued to to pervade, particularly amongst social and intellectual elites in our society.

1:14:24

So, yeah, I do think that there is very much a top down kind of phenomenon like you just described.

So the third thing that Anthony's known for is the battle for the body.

He didn't hate his body.

He wanted to master it.

And I think that's the thing that people misunderstand.

1:14:41

I think most commonly when it comes to, you know, what Anthony was up to.

And it, it, this was something that occurred to me not too long ago that the Internet of Things, a term that gets thrown around a bit, you know, with your smart fridge and you're smart, you know, television, all this kind of stuff.

1:15:01

Anyway, essentially what we're seeing is a kind of colonization of the physical world by the digital and I and I suspect.

Gives me the heebie jeebies.

Man.

I think that might be a line in the book.

I remember being like Underline.

But I think that our bodies are being colonized, and there'll be a kind of a progression that occurs.

1:15:24

Initially, it's going to be sold to us as health monitoring, you know, don't you want to know?

Yeah, Don't you want to know if you're, you know, in danger of having a heart attack and that kind of thing?

But it's just going to progress to the point where I think that we could really say there's a kind of possession that could be kind of realized with people who will go full cyber.

1:15:48

And that's what I was getting into.

And that's that the beginning of the book where I was describing this nightmare scenario where the person really is possessed, but not by, you know, a demon, Although I'm open to the idea that the demon, you know, demons could use AI.

1:16:04

So I'm not saying that that's not but just, but the fact that you maybe are being possessed by a corporation that's putting you to work and to serve its own, you know, ends or purposes kind of and you're in the dark about it.

1:16:21

And there's a lot of there, there's a lot of evidence that this is something that's already being experimented with.

So when we think about, you noted earlier that, you know, we can be influenced in very subtle ways by technology.

There's been a lot of work creating, you could say bespoke or like boutique psyops.

1:16:42

So something is designed just for Daniel and something is designed just for me that they know with the computing capacity that we have now, this is like a dream come true for the Stalin's and Hitler's of the world, you know?

Well, yeah, And the Edward Bernays's who were really behind all of that, right?

1:17:01

The Sigmund Freud's nephew there who gave us propaganda and public relations and smoking for women in fluoride water and all the good things, Right.

Like he trained these corporations up and now, now he didn't have these tools, but sure, he would have loved to have had them.

Yeah, yeah.

So, so, so, so you're saying almost like I experienced it at a small level with advertising, right?

1:17:24

Or just with the algorithm?

It's like, oh, I looked at that too long because now I'm getting more of that.

You know, sometimes it's like I just set my phone down.

I wasn't even looking at it, but it thinks I was looking at it.

So now I'm getting more of it and then or it's that thing of like something I talked about now I'm getting ads constantly.

So, so that taken to another level, you could quickly see, you could see how quickly you could be convinced of something like, you know, the lizard people are running the world or like the, you know, like any kind of thing, like you could just get shown enough.

1:17:53

Because one of the things I'll notice is if I get shown too much of A particular topic, people talking about a particular topic, I'll start thinking that topics in the Overton window and then I'll go and explore it and find out.

It's not, I'm just seeing people talking about it.

1:18:09

And then I thought, oh, people are talking about this.

And it's like, no, they're not talking about that.

So, you know, you like you, you already I'm seeing the effects of what you're saying, like very personalized.

My brother was saying to me yesterday, he goes in the way that people say off grid.

He's like, I wonder if they'll say off algorithm at some point when they yeah, they decide to like take a break from it.

1:18:28

Well, that's the desert, the desert of the analog.

So those those those three things I think are going to need to characterize people who stay human, You know, staying in touch with the physical world, living in the analog as much as possible doesn't mean you have to, you know, completely cut yourself off from the digital world.

1:18:47

And I think, but you'll need to be certainly put a priority on the analog to make sure that that's remains the thing that's most important.

And then discerning the spirits, being able to know when you're actually dealing with human beings when you're not.

1:19:04

And then finally, making sure that your body is not being Co opted, that you're not actually being coming under some kind of ongoing possession and being influenced in subtle ways through a direct connection with your physical life.

1:19:22

So anyway, those those are the three things that I talked about.

You know that on the topic of the desert, something that I think is really interesting, I've just noticed this in my own time as a public speaker, that because I've been promoting immersion in nature for a long time, both now as a believer in Christ, but also before and 10 years ago, 15 years ago, most Christian people I would interact with would almost act like in not everyone.

1:19:53

Obviously there's a lot of people who fall away outside of this, but there would be the sense of like, oh, you're like a nature worshipper and there's almost something bad about nature, but you're supposed to be in church or something, I don't know.

But now I'm seeing that that's turned a lot and I'm seeing a lot more Christian people saying nature's where I feel closest to God.

1:20:11

I really, you know, when I go into nature, I feel that connection and I'm starting to see that more.

And I think it has to do with this, you know, one of the things I love.

I mean, throughout the Gospels, it's just almost amusing when you just tune into how much Jesus disappears to go to some desolate place to pray and kind of recharge himself, right?

1:20:29

He does big talk, a whole bunch of people.

They're all Adam there.

He's having to get in boats or whatever.

But then, you know, he sneaks off and he goes off into the wilderness.

And I think that's a bit of what I'm hearing from you.

And that's what I've experienced, because when I go into nature, I'm finally away from stuff made by.

1:20:45

People.

Right.

Right.

And I, and I call, you know, on this topic of artificiality, I call the the world sometimes I call it artifact land, a place where everything's made by people.

And you start to get this sense that people are behind everything.

And if you never left it, you might not know that there's a whole world not made by people, you know.

1:21:05

And so going out and seeing that, seeing things that are too complex and too majestic to have been manufactured, you know, I, I think that's like a, a really restorative process.

So I really love that you that you talk about that.

1:21:20

Hey, one more question.

I'm curious.

And this is outside of the scope, so you can brush this one off if you want.

But as all this stuff is unfolding in front of us, we're simultaneously having this top down UAP thing unfold as well.

And I'm.

Oh wow, curious what you?

I just struggle to imagine these are in unrelated things, you know?

1:21:41

Yeah, yeah.

I'm with you curious.

Where you where you land on that?

Well, I'm, I'm, I'm haven't landed yet.

I'm up in the air, but I'm not sure what to make of it all because there appears to, to be, you know, enough physical evidence and recorded, you know, material to, to substantiate the claims that, you know, there are, there are things going on that we can't reduced to just natural phenomena or anything that human beings are responsible for.

1:22:14

So I'm, I'm like, yeah, I'm completely open to that, but I'm not sure what to do with it.

You know, I find the speculation intriguing and, but I'm still waiting for the killer argument that this is, this is what it is or that is what it is.

1:22:31

So that kind of thing.

So I'm, I'm, I'm more or less in this zone of uncertainty.

Something, something's real out there about this stuff, but I don't know what to make of any of it.

Now I've got friends that just say it's all demonic and I'm like, OK, that's, that's a theory.

1:22:48

I'm open to that.

But then there are other theories that I find, you know, interesting.

And I don't just dismiss whether we're talking about some kind of interdimensional kind of stuff that's going on or actual extraterrestrials.

1:23:04

You know, I, I'm, I'm open, but I just haven't come down on any of it.

Yeah, there's this sense in Christendom of a delusion that will be so great that if it were allowed, even the elect would be fooled, You know, So I, I'm watching this unfolding of a story that it's, it's like, it's a lot to sort through, you know?

1:23:27

Well, and, and that's something I'm open to too.

I mean, this is all could be just a massive psyop, you know, and, and who is who's behind it?

I don't know, you know, but that's possible too.

Yeah, well, it's a very exciting time.

I I have to remind myself sometimes like what a blessing to be alive during this time and how many people would would have throughout time would have wanted to be alive to see these kind of events unfolding.

1:23:52

I mean, we're we're quite lucky, even though there is a bit of a sense of oppressiveness to it at the same time.

And and the sort of there's almost a feeling of being like caught in a current, like you can't quite get out of.

It's just like it's leading you wherever it's leading you.

1:24:07

And and I still can't quite see like out ahead what it is exactly.

But but I go like, yeah, yeah, I know that doesn't look right.

What's happening here, you know?

Right, right.

I'm with you.

I'm with you.

Yeah.

But anyway, I, I just, again, I just want to say your, your book's fantastic.

1:24:23

I, I want to give you space for anything that maybe you want to conclude with or if there's anything that we didn't cover that you think is important to say.

Well, thanks.

Well, I appreciate the, I'm glad that you liked the book.

And yeah, I'm hopeful.

And you know, even though there's this sense of impending doom that many of us feel, I, I don't think that's, that's the sense that we should have a, I'm hopeful.

1:24:49

I'm, I believe that the future is bright, but I don't think that the future is bright because we're bright.

I believe, I believe that there's an, there is a super intelligence who is ordering things, who is also our creator and has her best interests at heart.

1:25:06

And I trust him.

So for those reasons, I'm, I'm, you know, hopeful, optimistic, you know, maybe is not the correct term, But, but if that's the word that that people like to use, then OK.

But but I also don't think that that means that we should be pollyannish about things like, you know, things can go really awry for a while.

1:25:32

Let's say I was a hopeful person in living in Saint Petersburg in 1917.

Would I, you know, anticipate 70 years of hell on earth?

Probably not.

But that's what followed the Bolshevik Revolution.

1:25:48

Now, that doesn't mean that's the end of the story.

That's the thing to keep in mind.

The end of the story is what we're looking for.

At any particular chapter in the course of the story, you could find yourself, you know, well, in the minds of Moria, or like, you know, you know, in some prison, you know, in Mordor.

1:26:08

Stuff, stuff like bad things happen, but the story will end well.

Yeah, yeah, I really agree.

I agree with everything you're saying.

This has been very fun for me because, like I said, to talk to somebody who kind of shares a perspective with me and it's just like, OK, if I'm crazy, I'm not alone.

1:26:27

Crazy.

So right, Right.

That feels really good.

Hey, where do you send people to get your book?

Well, I mean, it's online.

I mean, you can get it at all the places, as they say, where better books are sold.

So you know the the usual subjects.

But you know, you can even go down to your local bookstore and if they don't have it, then you can just order it through your local bookstore.

1:26:46

Yeah, place where you can touch real things.

Right.

Well.

Chris Wiley, thank you so much for your time today.

Really appreciate this talk.

Well, Daniel, thanks for having me on.

I've enjoyed it very much.