Transcript: End to the Upside Down — Mark Gober #019

0:00

My belief was that the more we learned from science, the more we were moving away from spirituality.

Fast forward to 10 years ago.

I was looking for hard evidence.

I'm looking at declassified CIA documents that talk about the use of psychic spying.

Your series of eight books is like everything that we've been fed is either a lie or associated with one not just small lies, huge lies that fully form or or inform our paradigm about what reality is, what this place is the.

0:29

World Economic Forums Great Reset Initiative, which is not a conspiracy theory, it's literally there was a book, COVID-19, The Great Reset by Klaus Schwab and one of his colleagues.

The sun is 400 times larger than the moon, but because it's 400 times closer, they appear to be exactly the same size.

0:47

And at times they overlay the idea that, oh, that's this is cosmic whiz bang accident, that we're just in the right time at the right place.

I find it all very confusing and I don't trust the government's narrative.

And I say that just out of what I think is a rational way of approaching it.

1:02

Because if the government has not been forthright in the past, why should we believe they're suddenly going to be telling the truth and not crafting a narrative in their own interest?

Mark Gober is the author of the Upside Down series of eight books.

1:18

Spanning the topics of consciousness, politics, economics, UFO's, medicine, cosmology and more.

His first?

Book An End to Upside Down Thinking won the IP Y Award for best Science book of the year.

He then wrote An End to Upside Down living, an End to Upside down liberty, an End to Upside Down contact, An end to Upside down reset, an End to upside down Medicine, and An end to the upside down Cosmos.

1:47

Mark graduated Magna cum laude from Princeton University where he wrote an award-winning thesis and was elected captain of Princeton's Division One tennis team.

Mark, welcome to the show.

Hi Daniel.

Thanks for having me.

2:02

I should say welcome back to the show for our audience here.

I got to interview you a few weeks back and made some terrible tech errors, did not record that.

So you're very kind to be back here in the hot seat today.

Thank you so much.

Happy to do it.

2:18

Man, I first of all, I just want to say I read an end to the upside down Cosmos over the summer and it landed really hard for me.

It was like a lot of stuff that I had been exposed to that I have friends that are into, but some of it I'd always kind of particularly getting into sort of some of the geocentricity stuff, I had just kind of like kept that push.

2:43

You can see my little globe there in the background.

I kind of kept that push to the side.

My mom's really into it, you know, so I've been pretty exposed to it, but I've never been exposed to it from somebody with an Ivy League education and A Division One, you know, athletes background.

2:58

And so it hadn't been presented to me in a way that I could really listen and hear it.

And some of the stuff that you brought forward in that book really blew my mind.

Your presentation, I just want to say, was excellent.

And made me so eager to talk to you then as I started digging in.

Or what are some of the other topics you've talked about?

3:15

It's just fascinating somebody with your background digging into topics like these, which are considered a bit fringe, but you're giving them the treatment they deserve.

So I wanted to take a minute to ask you about this suite of topics you've written these books about.

3:31

And, you know, just sort of like how someone like yourself with your background ends up putting his focus into these areas.

I never expected to be doing this.

In case you were wondering, or in case your audience sees all these books.

3:47

You might think, well, Mark always dreamed of being an author.

If you knew me about 10 years ago, I was very far from this.

I probably have always had an interest in understanding existence at some deep level.

I remember when I was young, remembering some conversations now in middle school and high school with my friends, thinking, looking up at the stars and thinking about who are we?

4:12

What's going on in the vastus of the cosmos?

How do we fit into that?

And I remember in physics classes, I was always really intrigued by what I learned.

I took at Princeton.

I wasn't, I didn't major in physics or astrophysics, although I thought about it at one point.

4:30

I took some courses and I remember being so intrigued in terms of learning about what's the origin of the universe, where'd it all come from?

What are, what are those lights we see in the sky?

So I think there's, there's been something within me that's been very existentially focused.

4:46

And the way that I harnessed that as I got older and more educated was to believe that there was no meaning or purpose to it.

That yes, we exist, but we are here as a result of random processes, meaning there isn't any higher spiritual intelligence involved in our existence.

5:07

There was a Big Bang 13.8 billion years ago and that led to lots of rocks colliding, which led to earth, which is billions of years old.

And then life randomly evolved via Darwinian mechanisms.

And that was the the story that I have been told in the more that I really sunk into that belief system, it made me resonate with literature like Richard Dawkins's book, The God Delusion.

5:35

He's an Oxford biologist, famous scientist, and he's very much an atheist.

And I remember reading that book in my early mid 20s and thinking, wow, this guy really nailed it.

The God Delusion.

So my belief was that the more we learn from science, the more we were moving away from spirituality and that the ideas of miracles and God, for example, those concepts were ideas from the past where very primitive people were looking for ways to explain their existence.

6:07

So they came up with these things that really are outside of the realm of what science now tells us is true because science is the pinnacle of human evolution and human thinking.

And that was really where I I was.

And Fast forward to 10 years ago, I was very much in that existential world view, although it wasn't occupying that much of my life.

6:29

I was very focused on business.

So when I graduated from Princeton, I worked in investment banking in New York during the financial crisis.

I was at a large bank called UBS, working around the clock, very unhealthy.

Going from being a college athlete to sitting in a chair all day and not sleeping was not good for me physically or mentally.

6:46

And it was probably a little bit into my second year in investment banking in New York, where I had a health scare.

I basically passed out at my desk late at night.

I was working with an associate on a financial model and my heart started beating in a strange way.

And I kind of like my, my face was going towards my desk.

7:04

It didn't fully plant, but it was not good.

And they were like, dude, you got to go home, take some rest.

And that's an investment banking for them to say go home, especially when I was working that, you know, something was up.

So I took some time off and I saw a doctor and the doctor said, your heart's fine.

7:19

You just need to fix your lifestyle.

Like you really need to get healthy.

And during that time off, I remembered I had received an e-mail from a college friend who said, hey, there's an opening at a new firm.

It's a spin out of one of the big consulting firms called Boss, the Boston Consulting Group.

These guys are forming a group that's going to do investing and strategy consulting and mergers and acquisitions related to innovation, basically helping companies both large and small with their patents.

7:49

So let's say you have a small company, some inventor comes up with a revolutionary idea, then decides to protect it with a patent and form a company around it.

And he or she says, what should we do with it?

Or imagine a huge company, you name the tech giant that has 10s of thousands of patents sometimes and the board says we've invested millions and millions of dollars and sometimes billions in research and development.

8:10

What should we do with these assets we have?

So the company that I joined, I ended up leaving New York to join this firm, first in Boston, then Silicon Valley, advising innovators basically.

And I did that for about 10 years, became a partner at the firm eventually.

And in the middle of that journey in 2016, there were a few things that happened.

8:30

There were some things in my personal life, some disappointing relationships, and also there were some business deals that were really disappointing.

And what happened was in the patent world, the laws changed.

And also there were some decisions in the courts that made it more difficult for a patent owner to defend against patent infringement, meaning companies could steal and get away with it.

8:55

And that meant if you owned patents, the patents were less valuable.

So there were deals that I worked on all the sudden, not because the innovations were bad, but because the protection, the legal protection wasn't as valuable.

And that really was, was harmful to the deals, but also to me because I had spent so much time and effort.

9:14

And there were a few deals in particular where I really, I, I felt like these were companies that innovative in ways that change the world.

And I felt like they were being disenfranchised.

So not only did the deals go under, but I saw people being mistreated.

And then the media would portray them in a way that I knew was not correct.

9:32

And I just saw the injustice of all this.

And I saw in one case, for example, a company that I feel revolutionized the wireless industry.

The reason that we use our devices today is because of a technology they invented.

And there was a judge that overturned the jury's verdict of patent infringement.

So.

9:48

So this company would have been compensated for its innovations.

And a jury ruled, yes, there was pad infringement.

The judge came up with a technicality and says, no, the jury shouldn't have ruled that way.

So complete disaster.

And these things, these were the kinds of things, I guess it was helpful for me to open my eyes to the way the world works.

10:08

But it was also really tough because I'd spent so much time in a career and working on deals that didn't work out the way that I wanted.

So I was very lost in all areas of life at this point.

And I started listening to podcasts.

Initially it was podcasts like Tim Ferriss and Heard Joe Rogan.

10:28

So this was back in the early days when podcasts were not quite as big and they were talking about alternative health and psychedelics.

And I was not, I was not ready to take any medication, whether whether a pharmaceutical medication or psychedelic.

But I was intrigued just to learn what people were talking about on these shows where you someone could take a plant medicine and then their depression would go away, sometimes in one dose.

10:50

Not everyone, but that was like a pretty miraculous concept to learn about.

And that led me to then listen to alternative health shows.

And there's one called Extreme Health Radio.

And I listen to an episode.

It was not even the first episode up.

It was like I was listening to one that was months before because I listen to a lot of the episodes.

11:09

And they interviewed a woman named Laura Powers who talked about psychic abilities that she was communicating with interdimensional beings like angels and trees, I think.

And like very out there concepts for me and the host of that show who I had heard on many other podcasts.

11:25

And I I regarded them to be serious people, meaning they were skeptical and they were looking at the science if people made claims about their health.

They were rigorous people and they were taking this woman seriously as if.

Oh yeah, of course that's true.

11:42

All these spiritual concepts.

So I was very confused because I'd never heard about spiritual concepts discussed in that way before.

And maybe I was just ripe, but I was interested.

I, I, my life didn't change on that day, but I was interested enough to then listen to Laura Powers, his own podcast called Healing Powers.

12:00

And she, her episodes are pretty short.

So I was able to just binge everything and it was one person after the next.

It would be like an astrologer or a media psychic medium or someone talking about the afterlife, all these mystical concepts where it was an accumulation.

12:16

I heard one person after the next.

People from different walks of life, different ages, different backgrounds, coming to a similar view of reality, one in which there's something interconnected that connects all of us that we can't see.

There's life after death.

12:32

Psychic abilities are real, reincarnation was a a big topic and that there's real meaning and purpose to life.

Whereas my previous worldview was that we could make up meaning in our own mind, but there wasn't any meaning fundamentally built into the nature of reality.

12:49

There wasn't a sole purpose, for example, meaning was whatever we just made-up arbitrarily of all, I think this means something.

Therefore it is versus no, there's a higher intelligence that programmed the world and there's meaning in that way.

I was very much averse to that perspective.

Whereas in these interviews I was hearing maybe there is some kind of spiritual purpose to life.

13:09

And Long story short, that led me to where we are today.

And it, it started off with the first book and ends upside down Thinking, which looks at the idea in mainstream science that the brain produces our consciousness.

And I was challenging that perspective with many of the phenomena that I heard about on podcast.

13:29

And then I was reading books and scientific papers, peer reviewed literature.

The Institute of Noetic Sciences, which has been around since 1973.

I'm a board member there.

The University of Virginia has a division of perceptual studies since the 1960s, looking at children with past life memories and birthmarks and physical deformities in their current body, aligning with the death of this alleged previous life.

13:51

I learned about Doctor Jessica Otts, who was the president of the American Statistical Association, so highly credible woman who wrote to Congress and the CIA in 1995.

Using the standards applied to any other area of science, it is concluded that psychic functioning has been well established.

14:12

That's what she concluded after looking at all the research on psychic abilities.

So that's from.

A statistical perspective.

She's a statistician, yeah.

President of the American Statistical Association.

I love podcasting, but there's definitely a downside for me, and that's because I have a tremendous body of curriculum myself.

14:31

And because I'm here all the time interviewing people, you hear from me a bit, but you you really hear other people's content and you don't get an opportunity to hear the curriculum that I've personally developed over the last 20 years.

And some of it's really powerful stuff which I get to share on other people's shows and sometimes in person as well.

14:51

And I wanted to let you know that I'm going to be doing an in person event on November 5th through the 8th of 2026 in Western Massachusetts at the Kapalu Center.

So if you're interested in working with me directly and you'd like to learn some of that curriculum, it would be awesome to have you there.

15:09

What I'm going to be teaching about is the domestication of the human animal and how to start to break free from some of the chains of domestication.

And I really want to look at why this is happening, where it's heading, and what do we need to do, particularly in this new era of the incredible digital tools that we're facing?

15:29

How do we stay human in the era of all things artificial?

So this is at the Kripalu Yoga Center, which is a really cool place.

It was once that campus used to be a Jesuit monastery.

And then now for a long time, it's been a yoga retreat center.

15:48

And this will be my third time presenting at Kripalu, my second time at this annual rewilding summit.

And there's going to be some awesome guest speakers there.

There'll be quite a lot of participants.

Now this is an event where you'll actually stay there on the campus.

16:03

So they've got just this really cool dorm style housing, they've got great meals, an awesome cafeteria, so all that's included and provided, and then just big, beautiful, spacious grounds out in the Berkshire Mountains of Western Massachusetts.

16:19

So again, that's going to be November 5th through the 8th.

I'll be one of the speakers and I'll be doing a lecture in the morning and then in the afternoon I'm going to be leading a kind of a primal movement course for hunter gatherers.

So it's going to be movement patterns that I have learned and used in the field while hunting, fishing and foraging.

16:40

Things that really helped me to be more efficient on the landscape, but stuff that you probably aren't going to pick up in a yoga class or in a, you know, a workout class in a gym or something like that.

So I really hope you'll join me.

I'm also going to be in Mexico in the spring of 2027, and I'm planning a trip to Peru with a small group late 2027, probably somewhere around November.

17:06

So over on danielvitalis.com, there is an events page.

If you go there now, you'll see Kripalu there, or you can go directly to Kripalu's website.

And I'm going to be updating the coming events page quite a bit as I'm taking on more and more events for 2027.

17:22

But I would love to have you there in person with me and have a weekend to get to know you and to work with you personally.

So again, go over to either Kripalu's website or go to danielvitalis.com and click on events and you can learn more about my talk and my movement class that I'll be doing at the Kripalu Center November 5th through the 8th of 2026.

17:44

So from my from where I was coming from, I was looking for hard evidence.

And I'm seeing UVA, president of the American Statistical Association.

I'm looking at declassified CIA documents that talk about the use of psychic spying.

It's called remote viewing.

So these were all very compelling concepts for me.

18:02

And I wanted to put this scientific evidence into a book because I thought let people make up their own minds.

But there's a lot of important science out there that many people have not been exposed to, myself included.

And prior to that, I thought I was well educated.

Now I think I was not well educated.

I'm having to unlearn everything that I learned.

18:18

And that was this was the first big one for me.

That's very foundational because if consciousness is not produced by the brain, if in the alternative, let's say our brain is an antenna picking up a signal or it's filtering something like a transducer, and the brain actually limits our perception.

18:36

Yeah, it does.

Which I did.

That was a radical concept for me.

So that was the first book.

I wrote it the next year, in 2017.

And at the time, Daniel, again, I was not a writer.

I wasn't.

That was not my thing.

You didn't have a vision for eight books that were going to follow this kind of line of thinking.

18:54

Not at all.

And even when I wrote that book, it was published in 2018 through very synchronistic circumstances.

I got in touch with Bill Gladstone, who of Waterside Productions.

Sadly, he passed away recently, but he's represented many authors in the space like Eckhart Tolle and Neil Donald Walsh.

19:10

And he responded to my e-mail and he said, here's a here's a contract to be to be.

I was he was going to be my literary agent.

Then he ended up publishing the book and then the subsequent books.

So and ends Upside Down Thinking was published in 2018.

It's a science book.

19:26

I don't use the word spiritual in it.

I talk about consciousness and the science.

So I I like to tell people if they're interested, if they're, if they're not familiar with anything, it's a good starting place.

And then a friend of mine from Maryland, where I grew up, we were high school buddies and he works in the podcast industry and he's like Mark, I have a great idea because we talked about doing a podcast on the subject.

19:48

He said we need to do a narrative basically audio docu series.

And it's not just me interviewing people, it's taking clips from the interviews to try to make it really digestible.

And at first, I was hesitant because I wanted to just start interviewing people and get the interviews out.

20:04

And I trusted him.

So thank you to Matt Forde at Blue Duck Media, He and Gabe Goodwin, they convinced me otherwise.

And we have this podcast series called Where Is My Mind, which for a lot of people has been the entry point not just for my work but also into the realm of consciousness.

Great name actually, if you're talking about where is consciousness located in the body or something like that, right?

20:24

That's a great name.

Exactly.

Is it?

Is our mind just in our brain inside of our skull?

Or is it beyond?

And I interviewed Brian Josephson, a Nobel Prize winner in physics, Dean Radin from the Institute of Noetic Sciences Professors at University of Virginia, Rupert Sheldrake, who's a former Cambridge biochemist, Like very credible people.

20:44

And we're talking about these phenomena that sound crazy, except there's a lot of evidence for it.

So that took me to the end of 2019, early 2020.

I was a partner at my firm and I was still pulled in these other directions of I had written a book and I did a podcast series, wasn't thinking about writing more.

21:01

I publisher Bill was was asking me, so what's your next book going to be about?

And I said like, I would have to have something so important that I'd want to write more.

I thought I was going to do one book and be done.

And I just decided to leave the firm because I, I felt so pulled to continue exploring and I needed to give myself space.

21:21

I, I wasn't able to split my energy.

Basically, it felt like I had one foot in the store of existence and the other foot in the business world.

And I felt like I was having to just suppress my energy to do a, even a seemingly normal business call.

I just felt contracted and it became more and more intense.

21:39

So I, I just said maybe I need to leave the firm.

This is kind of crazy.

In my early 30s, I was in a solid position professionally as a partner at the firm and and spent a lot of time in this career.

So I left and when I made the decision to leave the firm, the idea for book #2 came in and ends Upside down living.

21:57

And that talks about some of the implications of how we might think about orienting our consciousness if we are more than the body, if we do have a soul, if there is God, for example.

And then COVID hit.

So I'd written that book and COVID was just starting.

And then when the world shut down and there were people getting banned on YouTube for questioning the narrative, this was a very familiar thing to me because I'd seen this in business.

22:26

I had seen the truth being suppressed and then people believing the propaganda.

And so I was really confused at this point, Daniel, because there are many people who I was on board with for my first two books spiritually, and they were very pro lockdown.

22:43

They were in favor of what I would consider to be tyrannical measures.

So I said what is going on?

Because I thought I had a handle on reality at least somewhat.

But how could you get something right like the spiritual part and then get the worldly stuff so wrong?

22:59

And that led me to look into politics because up until that point, I was not a political person.

I didn't know the difference between Democrats and Republicans.

I really just never cared.

I only cared about politics to the extent that it affected legislation in my business.

So if there was new patent law, then I looked at it, but I just never cared.

23:16

And then all of a sudden it became very relevant because I was not aligning with the tyrannical measures and I didn't want to partake in what the government was saying.

I was looking.

I'm sure many of your audience.

I feel like I feel like a lot of America got a real education on how our government actually is structured and works through that whole time.

23:32

And to me it was even broader than the US government.

It was the nature of government itself.

And what is government?

I now look at it as a form of political monopoly over a certain territory, which is a whole longer discussion.

But I started getting into political philosophy, which was very new to me.

23:49

And I was looking at the work of Murray Rothbard, Ludwig von Mises, And I wrote An End to Upside Down Liberty, basically arguing against the way that we do government around the world in favor of something known as voluntarism, where government services would be handled in the way that service providers handle things elsewhere in a free marketplace.

24:09

And I looked at the Austrian School of Economics and tied it to consciousness.

So I was able to link the spiritual philosophically into a a new way of looking at political and economic theory.

When I say new, it's not new to me, but it's new relative to the way that the world does politics.

24:26

There are many thinkers that came before me, of course, but I wanted to synthesize it and then tie in the spiritual aspect.

And as I was getting into that, there was a lot of looking at the dark and the light because, well, how could our whole world be structured in a way that we had this political monopoly that has special privileges?

How did it get set up that way?

24:42

That seems like a dark force.

What?

What's the deal here?

Yeah.

Like they tell us the truth.

Even this notion of democracy, which I think we've been very much mind controlled to believe, is such a good thing.

If it's a compulsory democracy, is it so good if the majority can tell the minority what to do?

24:59

Like Murray Rothbard made a joke, which really isn't a joke.

If if the majority tells the minority, if the majority decides to kill the minority, the majority decides in democracy.

So that's OK, right?

So is that is that voluntary suicide on behalf of the minority?

25:17

Yeah, right.

No, it's not.

Yeah.

It's not so.

Also, when you find out that the masses are so easily swayed by social engineering, then you can engineer the 51% to consent to anything so.

It's a disaster and it was eye opening for me and it made me look at the the forces of dark and light.

25:35

And also that book came out in 2021.

So we were really in the peak tyranny of everything with COVID.

So much division in the world among different belief systems, medically and otherwise.

And I wrote next about the UFO phenomenon, not just UFO phenomenon, the contact phenomenon, because contact to me is not just UFOs and there's a lot of discussion about UFOs today.

26:00

But contact to me refers more broadly to allegations that there are non human intelligences out there that human beings interact with.

And that could be in a near death state where they encounter a being of light or it could be with a UFO craft.

So in that book, I looked at at the various alleged encounters that have been out there.

26:17

And it points against this idea of dark and light because the beings are not always so good.

And after writing that book, it made me not want to engage at all with any beings, like, stay away from me because I don't know what's what.

Then I wrote about the World Economic Forum's Great Reset Initiative, which is not a conspiracy theory.

26:34

It's literally there's a book, COVID-19, The Great Reset, by Klaus Schwab and one of his colleagues.

Hey, wait, don't skip through this.

I've got an important message for you.

For years I've been asked when I'll start offering one-on-one coaching or mentoring.

After years of living on the road making the Wild Fed TV show, I'm finally settled down and opening up my schedule to some video based coaching sessions.

26:57

I'm offering individual or ongoing one hour and 90 minute time slots to a select number of people who are looking for mentoring and lifestyle coaching.

Of course, my areas of focus are food and nutrition, self healthcare and nature based healthy living.

But I'm also a subject matter expert on wild foods with a focus on getting folks started in the hunting, fishing and foraging space.

27:20

And while I'm not a therapist, I'm happy to discuss relational, spiritual and even existential matters.

Having started a successful business and several other successful projects including my sixth season TV show Wild Fed, I also have some expertise in creating value based brands.

27:36

Now my time slots are limited, but I'm keeping my rates very reasonable, especially throughout the rest of 2026.

So if you're interested in working together, contact me at info@danielvitalis.com to learn more.

I am sincerely really looking forward to getting to know you and seeing you achieve some of your personal goals.

27:56

And it's to me, it's the overlap of sociology and dark versus light.

It's like the metaphysical meets the world.

It's the way in which some of these agendas, which on the surface might sound very compassionate, we just want to help you.

28:12

We're not trying to enslave you, We're trying to help you.

That those ideas can really be weaponized and there can be deception.

Then I looked at the medical system and it ends upside down.

Medicine looked at the germ theory of disease and basically challenging many of the assumptions in allopathic medicine in favor of something that's much more holistic that doctors have been talking about for a very long time.

28:37

Also incorporating spiritual aspects and looking at some of the debates around virology and whether viruses exist and cause disease in the way that people believe.

And in writing that book, there were many logical fallacies that I encountered.

28:52

Basically, where scientists would observe something in a lab and then make a conclusion about why they observed it.

The analogy here is if you see wet grass, do you know that it rained?

People might argue, well, wet rain causes wet grass.

29:08

Therefore if I see wet grass, it rain.

No, no, no, no.

Because there could be sprinklers, there could be dew, there could be children running by and pouring buckets of water on the grass.

Maybe the?

Dog could have peed on it.

Dog, we could come up with a million explanations.

Maybe there's some part of biology that we don't even understand that caused the grass to be wet.

29:27

So I, I mentioned that because it might seem like cosmology and medicine are separate.

And my next book after medicine was cosmology.

It was really the logical fallacies that I saw in medicine that drew me to cosmology where a bunch of people, including doctors said to me, Mark, you're on to it medicine, good job.

29:45

And if you want to take it further, look at cosmology because when you apply the logical fallacies that you found in the medical field, they're the same ones with regard to cosmology, with regard to where we exist in the universe.

And that led to an end to the upside down cosmos, which I know we'll get into in much more detail.

30:01

And then my newest book is an end to upside down creation, God, Torah, Jesus and re examining religion.

And it ties all of these concepts together and looks at beliefs held by more than half the world about religion.

30:17

So basically in in summary, I'm super interested in who are we?

Why are we here?

How should we be living?

What's the purpose to our existence?

30:32

And what is this place?

And to me, without answers to those questions, how can we even know how to prioritize anything in life?

Otherwise, we're like a blind person just searching and just saying, well, I think this is the right thing, therefore it's true, versus there must be some absolute truth to the way reality works, and it's in our best interest to try to align with it.

30:52

I kind of want to just start by saying congratulations on like escaping the, the mind prison, you know, especially I think because I, I've spent a lot of time in circles that are sort of outside of mainstream thinking most of my life really.

31:09

And your story's really unique because you were doing everything right in that world.

You know, So like in that fishbowl you are in, it's like you got the right education, you got the right athletic background, you got the right, you are a partner at the firm.

31:25

Like you were doing all the things And and then somehow you not only break up, but then you realize like that the entire superstructure around us is based on logical fallacies or outright lies.

I just like, I'm really impressive that you're able to do that, but then go so deep into this.

31:43

So I'm curious, how have you integrated?

I mean, from from what you just described, your series of eight books is like everything that we've been fed is either a lie or associated with one to the level that not just small lies, huge lies that fully form or or inform our paradigm about what reality is, what this place is.

32:09

I've been asking myself since I was a kid, like, what is this?

Like, what am I in exactly?

What is this place?

You know, and very few people really want to ever ask that question.

You ask that question and then you realize everything that you've been told about, it's an intentional lie.

How have you integrated that?

32:25

And, and I mean, I imagine the spiritual side of that's an important part of how you can like live with that knowledge.

It's very much an ongoing process and it's challenging because it's not for me.

Just one paradigm shift.

Each of the books I've mentioned is its own paradigm shift, where maybe for six books people were with me and then the 7th one they say no I can't, I'm not, I'm not with you on that anymore.

32:52

As far as I can go.

Right.

So there's this constant process for me of of the fear.

The fear usually goes away, but there's fear of judgement of whatever the consequences will be.

And then it can be forms of isolation, although I find that I end up finding people that I resonate with eventually.

33:12

But at first, when I learn about any new paradigm, I, I think to myself, how am I going to relate to people around me?

That's what happened in 2016.

Listen to these podcasts.

I didn't know anyone that I could talk to about these topics.

I didn't know spiritual people just like that was a foreign concept to talk about past lives with people or near death experience or that was a weird thing.

33:33

But eventually I started to open up and then there were people that resonated and I found like minded individuals.

So that's super challenging.

And then there's a constant, constant state of being destabilized because just in one moment I feel like, OK, I think I got it.

33:48

I know it's not 100%, but I think I'm there.

And then something huge comes in that totally makes me recontextualize everything.

So it's challenging.

That's the short answer to this.

Yeah.

And I think.

One of the one of the challenges is that the people that you meet who do accept some of these ideas as true, you can meet a lot of people that are way too far out that you know what I mean?

34:12

Like I, I'm challenged equally on both sides.

Like I find on one side people that are so sort of square that it's like, oh wow, it's really hard.

So normie that you're like, I can hardly really talk to them.

And then people that are so far out that you're like, whoa, that person has has untethered from reality a little bit.

34:28

And so finding people that can maintain that dynamic balance is even more challenging than finding somebody on the extremes, you know?

I try to keep myself in check constantly, and part of it is because I feel a huge sense of responsibility that if I'm going to do things publicly, I don't want to mislead people.

34:45

On a spiritual level.

I worry that there could be severe consequences to that, and I've heard that from a lot of people.

So if I'm talking about something, I try to couch it in basically, why am I talking about this?

Why do I feel like this is a credible subject and what are the limits to it?

35:03

And one of the ways that I've sought to approach that is by looking at claims that we've been told and evaluating those claims and say saying, is that thing true that they're telling us?

Can we validate it through direct observation, for example, the thing that they're telling us is true?

And I can get to a place of saying, for example, we have never observed.

35:25

Everyone would agree with this.

By the way, we have, no, we don't have 24 hour continuous video footage of Earth as a sphere with a radius value of roughly 4000 miles at the equator doing 1 full rotation where we can zoom in with the camera and see buildings and people standing upright on the top while they're sideways on the side and simultaneously hanging upside down on the bottom.

35:48

We don't have that.

So things like that, just statements that are true or this has been found in science, This hasn't been yet, this hasn't been proven.

People might get upset because they say, well, we can infer it, but I, I try to be very careful with what's been established, what's in inference, what's direct observation.

36:07

And then sometimes in my own life, and I think we all have to do this, we have to make decisions.

We don't have 100% certainty, but we might say, I have to choose the right or the left path.

I've got to go one way or the other.

So I'm going to use the best information available to make a probabilistic choice, even if I'm doing it without certainty.

36:25

So many of the things I now believe are not certainty because I don't have certainty.

But I can explain to you exactly why I might think above 50% chance this is true, even though it might be wrong.

Yeah, I'd love to dig into some specifics on on this stuff.

36:40

And you just brought up the sort of heliocentric versus geocentric model, which I'd like to get into.

But I, I kind of want to backtrack a second because you were talking about what, how we don't have this continuous view of the Earth.

And somebody might hear that and think like, well, you can't expect that.

36:57

And it's like, OK, but could you expect even a photo?

How about a photo?

And one of the challenges that we have is that as you dig into this stuff, you realize that NASA is almost like more of a propaganda arm of the government or something than it is the, the space agency we were led to believe.

37:17

And I, and one of the things that I grew up thinking was that, well, of course we have pictures of the Earth.

I grew up with them.

Could you kind of explain to people listening who maybe aren't really familiar with this, like just how little we have?

I know there's the one image from the 70's, the blue marble image, and then there's the maybe some stuff that came out of the Artemis flight, we're told.

37:37

But like, just in case anybody's wondering, can we actually start at the beginning and just talk about sort of the origins of NASA and the very strange religious component to how NASA comes into existence?

Because this is a weirdest story that most people have heard.

37:53

And actually in my book, the space agency discussion, I put off until chapter 6 because number one, it's it's uncomfortable because there's no way around the notion of intentional deception in this case, even with the medicine.

For example, in that book, if there, there are reasons that doctors or virologists might be promoting something out of the form of ignorance where they have just believed something to be true and made certain assumptions.

38:19

And there might be a few people who are malevolent, but there could be many innocent actors versus where I ended up with regard to cosmology.

And the reason this is chapter 6 in the book is that I'm looking at the science and the physics and how messed up everything is in terms of just, we have no understanding of what's going on in physics.

38:37

And I know that might upset some people, but 96% of the universe currently is believed to be dark matter and dark energy.

And according to Pavel Krupa, who's a astrophysicist in Germany, he's been spending years on this, dark matter has been falsified and was only conceived in the 1st place because there was too much mass in an observation of galaxies in 1933.

38:56

So in order to preserve the notion of Einstein's gravity, they said, oh, we discovered dark matter and dark energy has similar problems.

And when you look at the two leading theories of physics, which is general relativity, Einstein's theory of gravity and quantum mechanics, these are the two big theories, pillars of physics.

39:12

The equations blow up metaphorically when you bring them together.

Physics, it doesn't work.

And, and, and then people might get upset by that because they'll say, well, look at this piece of machinery or look at this one example where physics did work.

Problem is we have no overarching theory that can accommodate these many different observations that are out there.

39:31

So physics is objectively broken.

And then if we look at the space agencies, they are doing things on the basis of physics that's broken.

So something is is wrong here.

And I'm not saying that every single person that works at a government agency or at NASA that knows necessarily every part of this.

39:51

And I don't know every part of it, but I know what we can look at in terms of the science.

And in my book and into the upside down Cosmos, I'm quoting people like Doctor Steven A Young who's a theoretical physics PhD who's questioning all of these things, or Robert Bennett who's a specialist in relativity theory as a physicist.

40:11

And I hope I'm getting this right, His thesis advisors mentor worked directly with Einstein, something like that.

Like he has a direct Einsteinian lineage.

And this guy is challenging Einstein and talking about geocentrism, Earth being at the center rather than the sun.

40:28

So there, when you bring all this together and then look at the claims of NASA, there's a mismatch here.

So something's going on.

I, I really don't have any insider knowledge to know what it is.

But when you mention things like the images, the famous blue marble image, which has been on all the iPhones, that was admittedly photoshopped by someone from NASA, that you could read the the interview of the person who helped bring that image together.

40:52

And we know.

Prior to this year, that was admittedly the one single photo of the earth from outside that existed, correct?

Everything else is composited.

And is that true?

But but even that one was not a full image and that's.

41:08

Right, right.

But I mean because it's presented as the like a pinnacle.

Like they don't claim to have other images prior to Artemis, right?

There was no claims of other complete Earth images except that one.

I believe so.

There were some from the Apollo missions like the Earthrise image, there's the pale blue dot image from one of the you know, it's, it's very vague when you look at that to see to know like that little dot they're claiming in a fuzzy thing is Earth.

41:32

So when you really look into it and look at the fine print on many of the images, which say CGI or satellite composite and now with AI, how do we know anything?

It's it's really, if we want to be intellectually honest, we don't know what's what.

And so we have to just trust that a small number of people are delivering to us something that we can't verify ourselves.

41:52

And this is what Doctor Steven A Young, the physicist, says.

He says what we get from NASA is unfalsifiable and unverifiable.

It's scientifically problematic.

We just have to trust the authority.

And as you were alluding to earlier, there are some very shady things.

42:07

Looking at the origins of NASA, Wernher von Braun, who was one of the leaders in the early days of NASA, he came to the US in Operation paper clip.

He was a Nazi s s officer.

And also Jack Parsons who was involved in the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, rocket scientist.

42:23

He was involved in occult rituals.

He was working with the founder of Scientology, doing sex magic rituals in the desert to try to summon the Antichrist.

And these are the same.

Time too.

These are contemporaneous with the origins of the rocket program, right?

42:40

So unless somebody thinks like, well, maybe he was doing that in his teens and then in his 30s, he's developing rockets for NASA.

It's like, no, it's like all happening at the same time in the desert, you know?

And can we go back to Wernher von Braun for a second?

Because I believe he's most associated with the Saturn 2 rockets.

42:56

And the, I think that there's this impression that the Nazis were just this extremely right wing political group and we have filtered out of our awareness the level of occultism that they were interested in and what they were actually trying to achieve.

43:13

Like people's vision here today of what the Nazis were trying to do and what they were actually trying to do.

I mean, their real mission was very tied into occultism and these beliefs about the ancient world and what they were trying to resurrect.

It wasn't just this master race story we hear about.

It was like some pretty far out stuff having to do with ancient mythology and occultism.

43:34

Right.

So he's he would have been pretty steeped in the occult himself I assume.

Likely, and it's hard to discern some of these things because we can see general trends in what the ideology was.

But within within any individual, I found that it's it's hard to know exactly what they knew.

49:11

I agree with you.

I mean, these are the origins and it's interesting playing with AI.

For example, I'll say to it, imagine an organization that was led by a former Nazi S S officer.

Should we trust that organization?

It'll be like, no, you definitely shouldn't trust that.

49:26

And I'm like, what about an organization that was, they were doing sex rituals in the desert with the founder of Scientology?

Like no, you should never trust an organization like that.

Like what about one that was doing both?

And then eventually it says no, but you should trust NASA.

That's its conclusion.

So.

49:42

So, so these guys, though, were doing rocketry.

What, what, what occurs to me is that rocketry begins as this sort of a cult thing, not as pure science.

Like there's, you know, even today, you know, I've got a lot of friends, a lot of Christian friends who are convinced that we live in a Christian country.

49:59

And I'm always like, really, guys?

Like look at the space program.

Why is it all named after Greco, Roman gods?

It's Mercury.

It's Apollo.

It's Artemis, Right?

It's Gemini.

These are all named after gods and goddesses.

50:14

So there's this like hint to ancient religious beliefs, but then you see the guys who developed the Rockets and they're like you said, doing full on sex magic rituals the last two weeks long to try to bring in, you know, this moon child.

And you've got the Scientology guy involved in it heavily as well, where it's like he's not only starts his own religion, but he's also writing science fiction, right?

50:40

So he's like already making up these stories.

It's just the whole thing is like, seems like it's founded on something more spiritual and transhuman than it is on something purely like pure scientific exploration.

From the outside, it definitely seems that way.

50:59

And you think about as kids, we are indoctrinated with a perspective on the way the world works and the glory of space travel as presented by the space agencies.

But if you actually dig into what's claimed, it's it's really unverified.

51:14

And what people have a hard time with is they say, well, how many people would have to be involved in this?

And I don't know how it works.

I mean, I've heard many people argue that there's something called compartmentalization.

We have people in different segments of either contractors or within government, and they only know the individual project they're working on.

51:30

They might not know where the data comes from that they're getting or where their project is going to.

And you could have individuals at higher levels who are orchestrating all of that so that the the individual constituents who are in those different segments don't know what's happening.

51:45

I don't know.

But all I know is if I'm trying to verify the claims over and over again, it's problematic.

We haven't seen Earth revolving around the sun.

We don't have a picture of that thing that we all saw in school growing up of the sun at the middle and each of the planets around it.

52:02

And Earth is one of those planets.

We don't, we've never seen that.

These are all models.

We haven't seen the spinning globe doing a full rotation and zooming in, so it's it's curious given how much money goes to these organizations.

52:17

Yeah.

What we do, do you know offhand the the daily budget, I forget what it is, it's like $450 million a day or something like that.

It's.

Something like that, I don't remember, but it's, it's something very high.

And it makes me wonder how do we know where our, our money, taxpayer money goes to?

Do we have an accounting of where our dollar, what that is going towards?

52:36

And we a lot of people worry about black budgets and so forth.

And we just don't know.

Yeah, that money's got to come from somewhere.

What do you think about the the Apollo missions and the Boone missions?

And, and you know, this is 1 for me where I think over the years I've gotten more comfortable.

52:55

You know, in the beginning it was like so scary to be like, well, I'm, I have some questions about this.

And I think the safe position for me is like, I don't believe the footage is real.

I don't know if they went or not.

But as a time goes on, I find it less and less plausible and I think culturally people are starting to see that you certainly when you look at other countries supposed moon footage, it's like looks pretty fake.

53:18

But ours ours as well.

I'm just curious what you think happened with with those moon missions.

In each case, it's a very small number of individuals who are the only ones who can verify what happened.

Again, like any claim like that, we'd want to have many people who could verify it, just objectively speaking, if we wanted to get comfortable.

53:37

Aside from the belief that, Oh well, it's an authority figure that's telling us it's true, therefore it must be true.

I struggle with that.

I've been to the NASA museum, for example.

I don't know if you have, but looking at the construction of the craft that allegedly went through this Van Allen radiation belt and made it to the moon and back, I find it hard to believe.

53:58

When I look at the way that thing is constructed, it seems very flimsy.

It seems like something that you'd make in your backyard that can withstand the vastness of space and all the little space rocks that are supposed to be flying around, even if they're microscopic.

But just so many questions I have about the claims of physics and the way space is supposed to work and that that craft was capable of doing it.

54:19

But I just pulled up a quote here.

It's in my book.

This is from a 2010 report from NASA, and it's talking about the raw information from the moon missions known as telemetry tapes.

OK, this is direct quote.

Anyone can go read it.

Quote Aside from a few canisters of Apollo 9 telemetry tapes still stored, the Apollo era telemetry tapes no longer exist anywhere.

54:48

What are we supposed to do with that, Daniel?

What is like?

Got rid of it all.

Yeah.

And then the, and then the, you know, the how much time did it take to go back?

Right.

It's like, well, we're, I mean, they're supposedly still working on it.

It just doesn't really make any sense.

You know, it's a it's makes a lot of sense as a political stunt.

55:04

It makes a lot of sense as a fundraising stunt.

I get all of that.

But when I think of actually going there and then being like, well, we've done that now we're done and we're not going to go back and we're going to get rid of the tapes and we're going to get rid of all the equipment and we're going to lose the technology.

Just a pretty tough sell for me.

It However, it does shape the paradigm of the generation of people who witness it and those who come after to believe that certain things have been done and therefore are possible or that the that the place we live in works in a certain way.

55:36

So it certainly shapes our view of of where we live.

And even some of the alleged evidence from those missions, like the idea of moon rocks that were brought back, there's an example, and this was in in 2009, there was a moon rock, an alleged moon rock from Apollo 11.

55:52

And this was a former U.S. ambassador.

He gave it to the Dutch Prime Minister.

And then it was in the Amsterdam's famous Reeks museum as the famous moon rock.

It turned out that it's petrified wood, OK, from Earth, not a moon rock.

56:10

And that's that was in 2009.

This was discovered so many years later.

Another example that's made the news is that a woman was trying to sell a rice grain sized quote UN quote moon rock that her husband got from Neil Armstrong and she wanted to sell it to pay for her son's medical bills and this led to a sting operation.

56:28

Federal agents detained the woman in a Denny's parking lot.

It's a very strange thanks here.

If if we had so many astronauts that went to the moon should why would one of them be petrified?

Would that was in a museum?

And then even if we did have rocks, this gets into the realm of inference.

56:46

Also, how do we know that a rock is a moon rock?

How can we verify that?

Unless we're all like how?

How do we know that the origin without many many inferences?

There could be rocks from Earth that someone just says is a moon rock.

Why do you?

57:02

Has there been any explanation?

I think, OK, so if I ran a giant organization and there was a conspiracy theory running rampant, I would probably at some point just simply like address it.

You know, if we had the proof to address it, I would address it.

57:20

So obviously NASA's aware at the this conspiracy around the moon landing is is been going on for decades.

But in recent years, boys, it really picked up and this idea of whether or not the Earth is a globe went from this very fringe thing you just started to hear about a little bit to now, I mean, try to I can't scroll through my social media feed without getting hit with this constantly.

57:44

So it's it's grown to a level where since they did their recent mission, you think they would want to do some things to maybe even troll it a little bit and be like, see, and I guess that's a question I have like, why don't they just turn one of their telescopes back on Earth?

58:01

Or why can't we just see these images that would sort of put this to bed?

Just curious your thoughts on that because it just seems like it would be easy enough to just address it head on if they had the kind of proof that would simply quell everybody's ideas here.

58:19

Yeah, that was one of the reasons I felt comfortable writing the book is that there have been many, many opportunities to try to dispel these alternative cosmologies.

And we don't get solid evidence ever.

It's always inference.

It's always a partial image.

58:36

We never see the full.

We'd want to see down and away curvature.

So there's a distinction between a circle and a sphere, which I think can confuse people because round could apply to a sphere or to a circle.

And if you're on an airplane, for example, that's just high altitude.

That's not way, way in quote UN quote outer space.

58:53

But some people will say, well, I see curvature out in the distance.

Often what they mean is they see circular curvature, which is what you'd expect when we see in the distance.

It's known as an azimuthal grid of vision.

If you stand out in a field, it looks like we're in a Dome because of the way our eyes see it.

At a distance, we see circularity.

59:10

Circularity is actually fine and predicted.

You don't need a globe for that.

With a globe, you'd see down and away curvature, and you would only be able to see that very clearly at a super high altitude.

And what happens often #1 there's distortion with windows, but they're also fisheye lenses.

59:27

Which are known common for most of this photography, right?

Yeah, and it's known to create the appearance of a spherical down and away curvature that doesn't actually exist.

So we need to know what cameras used and what is the altitude, what is the amount of down and away curvature you would expect at various altitudes.

59:44

At a high altitude mission, we don't have enough.

Even even if everyone's being truly honest, most those missions are not high enough to show us what we would need to prove a sphere.

And likewise, from where we are on Earth, we've never seen down and away curvature.

59:59

It's always.

A topographical plane as far as we can see with our eyes and we've never felt Earth's motion like we're allegedly spinning on a tilted axis faster than the speed of sound at the equator, which is 1000 miles an hour.

That's the allegation.

We're supposed to be flying around in a state of freefall around the sun over 60,000 miles an hour, going around the Milky Way Galaxy over 500,000 miles an hour and millions of miles an hour in an expanding universe.

1:00:23

That's those are all the ways in which we're currently moving you right now listening to this are allegedly moving in all these ways.

We've never experienced that.

These are all models whereas in a very slow moving car, for example, even if there's even a bump, you feel it.

If you're on an airplane, you feel bumps.

1:00:38

Sure, it feels kind of constant for some of the time, but you feel bumps.

We never feel bumps you also.

See the plane like dipping and and and ascending and all of that as well.

You feel the change of the plane that you're on, you know?

You feel something and those are much slower speeds.

1:00:53

And here if there are earthquakes, we feel earthquakes.

So just from an experiential perspective, which I find myself more and more coming to experience, if it's not based on direct experience, then we could be thinking that it rained because there was wet grass and that's what happens.

I recently, after reading your book, I brought this up in a men's group and boy, it got some guys really fired up.

1:01:13

And I was saying, yeah, you can't really, there's nothing observable you can go do to show that the Earth is a, is a sphere.

And they were like, of course, their initial response was like, of course there is, they're all on their ChatGPT trying to figure out like, well, how do you?

But, but my understanding in, I think you mentioned this in the book that that you could go to Antarctica to see a 24 hour day would be like the only really observable, you know, that that a layperson could do.

1:01:41

And I wanted to ask you about that because because wasn't that done or attempted in recent years and sort of what was the outcome and and how does that fit into this whole story?

Yeah.

So there has been a big debate about seeing the 24 hour sun during the summer in the Southern hemisphere, in Antarctica.

1:02:00

And the belief is that if you see it in the sky for 24 hours, that can be explained by the globe but would not be explained by the Flat Earth model.

And this is even a problematic discussion because to me there isn't a Flat Earth model.

There are frameworks.

The one that we normally see is like Earth, Earth being like a pizza with a thick crust.

1:02:20

And that thick crust is Antarctica has like a wall of ice or something, right?

And then right.

Which which interestingly, is like the UN logo and everything.

They're a bunch of yeah, where, where Earth is a circle and Antarctica is not a continent, an island.

1:02:36

It's rather the outside of the circle is Antarctica.

That's a common framework that's been put forth, but we haven't even verified that because we can't.

We haven't observed all of Antarctica.

We have the Antarctic Treaty from 1959, which restricts our ability to go to Antarctica.

1:02:51

Certainly people can go to parts of it, but if you go to Manhattan, does that tell you about all of North America?

We have not been able to dissect this as it as citizens.

So we have a problem in terms of coming up with a map.

But that aside, let's say they're the people with the Flat Earth framework.

1:03:06

And then there's the globe model, which is very detailed.

And the idea was that if you see the sun in the sky for 24 hours during the summer in Antarctica, that would prove the globe model is true and it would prove that the Flat Earth model is false.

And this is problematic philosophically to begin with, because is it true that if you observe wet grass that it rained, might there be other reasons that we observe wet grass that had nothing to do with rain?

1:03:33

So what happened?

There was a big expedition.

It was called the final experiment, which to me is a misnomer.

To me, it's the single observation.

It was a single observation in a location, in one location.

And we have people who were Flat Earth believers and globe believers, mostly globe believers and even the Flat Earth believers, they agreed the 24 hour sun was in the sky the whole time in that one location.

1:03:51

So many people throughout the media, they said this is the end of Flat Earth.

And, and I talked about in my book, I wrote the book before this expedition went out and, and I, I said something to the effect of this is a contentious issue and there will need to be many replications of it because that was in one location.

And who knows what that location was exactly and what was going on in that one location.

1:04:12

But even in spite of that, there have been some other people who have looked at whether that observation would be possible still on a Flat Earth.

And there there's a model by Joseph Handvy.

He has some YouTube videos where he created an actual physical contraption where he has a light source from above with the Flat Earth model of a superfluid medium above, basically.

1:04:30

And when you shine the light in a certain way, you can have 24 hour sun in certain locations around the perimeter.

So there, there it's another example of, well, we see wet, we see wet grass, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it rained.

And basically what the globe believer says, well, it rained.

1:04:46

That's why we see wet grass.

I, I think one of the things about the heliocentric model that's always challenged me or seemed like a potential, and this is used as a proof for creationists actually, is the idea that the moon and the sun are visibly to our eye, exactly the same size.

1:05:07

Such that when you overlay them in a, in a full lunar eclipse, you get only the corona of the sun visible because they are as discs identical in size.

And the story is that, yes, they're vastly different in size. 1 the sun is 400 times larger than the moon, but because it's 400 times closer, they appear to be exact.

1:05:30

And you know, and when you look back through the spiritual traditions through time, of course, the sun and the moon represent like dynamic opposites, male, female, yin Yang, perfect dynamic opposites. 1 rules the day, one rules the night.

And they're exactly the same size.

And at times they overlay.

1:05:46

And there's the idea that oh, that's this is cosmic whiz bang accident, that we're just in the right time at the right place where they appear exact.

It's almost like stretches credulity for me.

I agree with you.

This is a big one that I was I would ask any Big Bang believer that we exist because of random processes.

1:06:07

After 13.8 billion years of rocks colliding, we live on planet earth such that we have a moon that is 238,000 miles away from us and a sun that's 93,000,000 miles away from us, 93,000,000 miles.

1:06:25

Think about how far away that is, 93,000,000 miles away from us and this the moon 238,000 miles away from us.

That is so far and these objects that are so far away from each other, they just so happened to have the perfect relative sizes and distances such that during a solar eclipse, it looks like the moon is canceling out the sun as if they were the same size, but they're.

1:06:50

Perfectly.

Perfectly.

I mean, you just have this coronal image around the moon when that happens.

To me that's a.

That's a very far fetched.

Yeah, same.

And, and I think that there's also one of the things that I thought a lot about is how we have this sense that first of all that we go to space, routinely go to space, and that there's this space station that's like out in space.

1:07:17

But the reality is that space station you were just talking about, you know, the the sun being 93,000,000 miles away, that space station's like 250 miles up, which when I think about that, like that's like 1/2 a day's drive.

Like, it's just not far.

I had the impression growing up that astronauts were in space, and now I'm like, oh, we don't really go to space.

1:07:38

We go to high Earth, high Earth orbit.

And if the moon missions were real, that's like the only time we went out there, which is just again, like just starts to stretch credulity.

You're like, wait a second, we the first attempt and it like it works and we just pull that whole thing off and then we never do it again.

1:07:57

And the rest we've just been 250 miles up this whole time.

Like watching water droplets float.

That's just seems a little ridiculous.

But like if you grew up with Star Trek, Star Wars in a, in a million of these films of people in space, and then, you know, we have this space station, It starts to create this narrative in your mind that human beings routinely go to space with access to space.

1:08:21

But like, really, we're just orbiting the Earth, right?

Like a satellite.

Yeah, there's an important distinction here because people use the word space and it has very broad connotations to me.

Most cases, except for things like the Apollo missions or the alleged missions where things are going into vast areas of space or into the far out places of solar system where no human is going with them, those would be outer space according to the mainstream model.

1:08:45

Everything else is just high altitude.

It's not space.

So I think we need to separate those two.

And what do we actually have from the actual outer space, quote UN quote?

We have very little that's verifiable.

We have a few cases of a few individuals that we have to then believe their testimony that we could not verify and their sketchiness in all of it.

1:09:06

What do you mean by sketchiness?

Just to just to clarify, we can't.

Verify the images we.

There's CGI, the origins of NASA, the moon rocks, the lack of telemetry data, and a lot of.

These guys are part of secret societies that take, you know, oaths on pain of death to never reveal secrets as well, which is like an, which is just another compounding factor that I think you add to this thing, you know, and, and with those secret societies, one thing that always gets me is when people are act like this is like a conspiracy theory thing where it's like, I often will be say, hey, does, does the, does the greeter at Walmart know what's being discussed in the boardroom at the very tip top of Walmart?

1:09:46

Like no, by design.

Of course not.

It's a hierarchy.

So you got a couple of people in that room who make decisions that go to managers that go down to managers that keep going down and down just like a conspiracy.

And, and nobody's like, well, how could they possibly keep it a secret or whatever?

1:10:02

It's like we just understand with the military or with Walmart that that's how this kind of thing would work.

But the but as soon as you start to like apply it broadly, like what about a secret society that's in every town in America, Every town you drive into has a bunch of signs that tell you when their meetings are and at what time.

1:10:21

And then they all have these same places.

And then you find out it's like all like the judges and the lawyers and the prosecutor and the town manager and all these people are like all members.

And then it filters all the way up to the top.

And, you know, the idea that you take a, a blood oaths, you know, vow to secrecy, seems like you could probably find a pool of people within there that were good at keeping secrets if you needed to, you know?

1:10:46

And the challenge from the outside is if it's secretive, then by definition it's going to be hard for us to know exactly what's happening.

So we can look at these data points and say this doesn't make sense, this doesn't make sense, physics broken.

We know something's going on.

We don't necessarily know how, and we don't have to know how.

1:11:02

To be able to explain every part of how this works is not a requirement.

Yeah, to disagree with the narrative, you don't necessarily have to know how it all works.

Right.

Like that'd be another logical fallacy.

I do wonder, I'm curious, your thoughts on this.

So observably so, I own several sets of night vision goggles.

1:11:19

And I I had friends over here the other day.

And one of the things that's really interesting is if you go out on a starry night with people and you have them look at any section of the sky for even a moment, you know, you look up and I don't know, you see 10,000 stars and then you look up with the night vision and you're seeing 10 times that.

1:11:35

I mean, it's truly stunning how filled the night sky is with stars.

If you can amplify the light.

But if you just look at any postage stamp sized piece of the sky for a couple of minutes, I'll tell people, just pick a spot and look there for 5 minutes.

The amount of traffic up there is astonishing.

1:11:52

I mean, anybody with with a pair of Gentry night vision goggles can see this.

There's so much stuff going on in there's no, it's an all different, every direction imaginable.

There is no like pathway for things.

It's just every, it's just stuff going everywhere.

1:12:07

Satellites is all I assume is what they are, but it's somebody's putting stuff up there.

I guess.

There's a lot of, there's a lot of traffic.

It's as busy as any town.

Yeah.

Well, two things that I want to add to that.

Number one, seeing a lot of lights in the sky just tells us there are a lot of lights in the sky.

1:12:28

It doesn't tell us that these are massive gas giants that are light years and light years away.

We didn't take a ruler out and measure how far away those are.

We, we don't know.

We, we, they're all kinds of inferences.

And we look at it and we say, wow, space is so big.

It's infinitely big.

Well, that's because of the models and physics that have it has to be big in order for Einstein's relativity and other things and The Big Bang and rapid inflation, so to speak.

1:12:52

At the beginning of The Big Bang, all these things require a massive universe.

But if you took away all assumptions, all you see are lights up there.

And sure, with greater magnification and greater clarity, you can see more lights, but that doesn't tell us anything about what those lights are.

But with regards to the moving things, this this moves us into, I think potentially two different discussions. 1 is satellites and government drones.

1:13:14

That there are probably lots of government things up there.

I don't, I don't know.

But then also the topic of UFOs, which has been around there around for a very long time.

People have been reporting aerial phenomena throughout history and I wrote about this in my book and end upside down contact.

It's very difficult to know what's going on and that's I come away from it really not knowing on anyone instance.

1:13:35

Now we have so much technology out there that's out in the open that complicates things because of that technology, even if there are legitimate, let's say non human intelligences, we also have human technology.

So I'm highly skeptical of certainty within the narrative of, well, I saw this one thing and therefore I know I think it's very complex.

1:13:55

I'm OK, so a little background on Mia.

You know, I mentioned my mom is like into the Flat Earth thing.

She's into all of it, the she the mud flood, the all, the all the things, you know, but she's also, you know, this is all relatively new for her, I think.

But but growing up, my mom is an abductee.

1:14:13

So I grew up in and honestly, it was kind of hell because it whatever she experienced, it destroyed her life.

Like, it wasn't this wasn't a good thing, you know?

And she was telling me these stories long before this was in the mainstream.

I mean, I remember when she was writing letters to Benny and Barney Hill because they were the only people whose stories were known.

1:14:34

And she's from the same area.

It happened to her in the same area.

And it happened throughout her life.

And, you know, the things she told me are now mainstream.

And the images she described to me are now mainstream images.

So I don't know what happened to her, but I know whatever it was wasn't good.

1:14:49

And I grew up with it and I've watched this narrative change tremendously from aliens from other planets who travel here and metal ships and then like get here 'cause they want to talk to us to now I'm watching it shift to NHI, non human intelligence.

1:15:09

And it went from other planets.

It seems like the narrative's shifted a lot more to interdimensional beings.

And that's happened in this sort of seamless way where I don't know if the public's caught on to that yet, but that's what I'm noticing.

And kind of like what I said before, why doesn't NASA just turn the Hubble around and show us a picture of the Earth or whatever?

1:15:27

I don't know if the Hubble can do that, but you know what I'm saying.

Why not just put this to rest?

Similarly, I, I know that with the UAP files that are being released, we're mostly seeing like a white dot moving across the screen.

And you can be like whatever that could be a balloon.

1:15:42

Who knows what that is?

But simultaneously you have Congress people saying the most outlandish things, right?

So I'm thinking of Tim Birchett, I'm thinking of Anna Paulina Luna.

These guys are talking about contact with non human intelligences.

1:16:01

They're talking about non human biologics, they're saying things, they're talking about recovery programs.

And then you've got all of these whistleblowers who are testifying in Congress.

Definitely our government could just say, hey guys, we do have these UAP files.

We've got some stuff of like things floating across the screen, but this stuff is not.

1:16:20

But they're not saying that.

They're letting this story continue to foment and they're letting it.

They're letting speculation run wild, which tells me that there's that's on purpose because otherwise they could stop that.

1:16:35

They could just put an end to that, at least make a statement, but they don't.

What do you think's going on in this space?

And is this, do you think this is a perpetual runaround, like it never goes anywhere?

Or are these files as they're being released, being built upon lead as it leading somewhere in your mind?

1:16:52

Like what's going on here with this UAP?

Because now this is I I feel so bad for like I've got a hunting buddy.

He's, you know, like almost 80.

I'm like, how's he processing this?

When he turns on Fox News and they're like talking about reptilians and insectilans and stuff, Like how is he even supposed to process that?

1:17:14

I find it all very confusing and I don't trust the government's narrative.

And I say that just out of what I think is a rational way of approaching it.

Because if the government has not been forthright on this topic in the past, why should we believe they're suddenly going to be telling the truth and not crafting a narrative in their own interest?

1:17:32

We know from Project Blue Book and many other initiatives that I discussed in my book and end upside down contact, this is not new.

We know the government has had interests and involvement in these sorts of phenomena and now it's only for the first time reasonable to start talking about it.

And we have different types of narratives that are coming forth within that broader field.

1:17:49

So why now?

Why are certain narratives being pushed?

Is are we being steered in a certain direction?

I don't know.

And it's actually made me very uninterested in the topic because when the headlines come, I'm like, I don't, this is not where I'm going to be learning about this.

1:18:05

Topic Yeah, right, right.

I'm.

Going to learn it from somewhere else.

Yeah, Yeah.

Do you would do you think that there, what do you personally think?

Or is that maybe you don't want to get into it, But I mean, when when it comes to let's say this specific topic, do you think these are physical entities with physical crafts coming from physical planets?

1:18:30

Do you think these are if they are they non?

Are they interdimensional and not from this realm and and punching into our realm?

Is this nonsense?

Like what do you make of it?

And what do you what do you make of the claims of these Congress people?

1:18:46

Do you think that they are part of a narrative that's being spun, or do you think that they're authentically trying to get to the truth?

Well, I don't know the information they're getting.

Maybe the information they're getting, they are being authentic in what they're being, what they've been given.

Maybe that's not the totality.

1:19:03

So I, who knows, who knows also with bribery and blackmail and threats and mind control, I just never know what to believe unless I can have some kind of external validation for it.

And to me that the best validation comes through a vast history of discussion of this topic, whether it's through the abduction literature, like John Mack, who was the head of psychiatry at Harvard, wrote about this, Rick Strassman's work on DMT, the psychedelic dimethyltryptamine, where people were taking the substance and they were having abduction experiences in their consciousness.

1:19:33

Or like the Vimanas discussed in the ancient Indian literature talking about these flying devices.

So there's a lot out there that we know there's something going on in any individual case.

I have a hard time discerning like could there be exclusively physical craft sometimes?

1:19:48

Maybe might some of the crafts be interdimensional?

So I think it's to talk about it in a monolithic way is really challenging even to even to call it like the contact phenomenon.

Maybe some of its physical, maybe some of its interdimensional, maybe there's both out there.

Each case would have to be discussed in its own way, and the notion you mentioned of basically travel from faraway places, I would need to have more evidence that such faraway places exist.

1:20:14

Exist.

Meaning that planets that are that many miles millions of miles away and galaxies that are so far away versus lights that are much closer.

I would need to have more evidence that that's real thing.

And we, we could have travel from, we don't even have a full map of what Earth is.

I know that's controversial to say, but until we can really look at Antarctica and have independent, free and private access to all of it, how do we really know what everything is if we're restricted to go in certain places?

1:20:38

So could there be lands where the beings exist?

We don't Also underwater.

There's a lot we don't know about.

And then when you and those are some of the claims.

Right there could be stuff underwater.

There's a lot of the sea we don't see.

We don't.

We don't even know what's in the ground below our feet.

The claim of the globe model, again, very specific claim.

1:20:56

Earth has a radius of about 4000 miles of the equator.

Great.

One way to test that would be to measure it.

Send a drill down to the core, 4000 miles.

What have they done?

They tried to do it and they got under 8 miles and they had to stop.

It's a Russian experiment, right?

The Russian, yeah, the cola super deep, I believe borehole mission under 8 miles.

1:21:16

So we really don't know what's beneath our feet fully.

Ideally, we'd love to go all the way down to the core and then end up on the other side of Earth.

That would be pretty sweet because that would be a way to directly verify, OK, you could send something down.

And we know how many miles that was, but we haven't been able to get close to that.

1:21:31

So we don't know what's below us.

And then when you combine the ocean aspect of it, my point is there's a lot of Earth that we don't know.

We don't know what's there, and there could be territories.

I've heard many people say like this notion of extra territories, extraterrestrial, there might be other territories within Earth.

1:21:49

So I did the long way of saying I really don't know what's going on.

What do you think is the OK, so there's you mentioned before sort of darkness and light.

And as you start digging in on any of these topics that you've written about, like if I was to sit down for a week and just read through all your books from like the beginning to the end, I have to come away going like we're being manipulated.

1:22:13

It seems like the battleground is consciousness.

It's not necessarily about forcing me to, you know, build gizmos or turn dials.

It's about trying to control what I believe the world is and therefore how I move through that world.

1:22:31

And when you start going like every, every institution's like doing the opposite thing.

It's supposed to do in a way, like medicine's a great example.

It's supposed to be healing people, but mostly it's killing people.

You know, that's how the food system works.

1:22:48

It's supposed to be feeding people.

Instead, it's poisoning people.

You know, our space agency, it's supposed to be about discovery, but it's mostly like feeding us nonsense.

So it's like when you start to realize that it's hard not to arrive at this idea that things are being run by that maybe that darkness, it's certainly not light.

1:23:07

I'm very curious where this is all headed for you, since you have a book about religion coming out and if there's anything you want to share about, like how you how you see this battle of darkness and light?

Do you see it as a battle?

I shouldn't put those words in your mouth, but it sure seems like darkness is running things and it and it seems like the more stuff that comes out, the more that's becoming like undeniable to regular people.

1:23:30

For the first time in my lifetime, I'm watching regular people be like, whoa, how do I opt out of this?

This is getting dark and weird.

The Epstein stuff.

I mean, what is going on?

Right?

You just if that's real and that's not, I mean, I unfortunately, I'm at that place where I don't know what's SIOP, what's not am I?

1:23:48

Is that to make me believe that maybe maybe it's to make me distrust the entire institution so that we can have a massive change in how we're governed?

Like, I don't know.

But if it's real.

This is like, OK, we got some dark forces here, So what?

But it seems like it's in every institution.

1:24:05

It seems like it's in every area.

There's things going on in every circle of government and the private sector that's so dark that there's this Bible verse I really like.

It's first John 5/19.

It says we know we're from God and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

1:24:24

You're like, OK, yeah, that kind of seems about bang on.

Like the whole thing's run by darkness, So is that crazy?

What do you think?

What are you uncovering?

Where's this all going?

Spiritual war is a term I've used in many of my books and to me it makes the most sense of what I've experienced and what I've researched.

1:24:42

That there are dark forces that exist.

It's somehow inherent to wherever we live that there are deceptive forces.

And it seems to me that it's always anti God, it's always against the higher intelligence, scientifically and otherwise, and so much of what I learned in school and all these disciplines.

1:25:03

But there's Darwinism, random evolution, that's why we exist.

There's no intelligent creator involved.

Earth happens to be 4.6 billion years old because of The Big Bang.

All of these inferences, one on top of the other, consciousness pops out of the brain and when you die, that's the end of your consciousness.

How many of these inferences do we need to put together to take away spirituality and the notion of a higher intelligence Everywhere we look, it's baked into the world.

1:25:27

And I was in the belly of that beast without even knowing it.

So I saw first hand, I guess how it works.

I, I don't really know, but it's, it's a, it creates such a wall.

I guess it's not fully impenetrable.

You can get out of it, but it's a very thick wall of ignorance to make you believe something that is based on inference and then can easily be falsified once you start looking outside of it.

1:25:50

So my own personal experience leads me to believe there are intentional dark forces, and how they work and how they came to be is a different question, but it's clearly here.

What a weird thing for you to arrive at.

You know, from doing the work you were doing to like arriving at that conclusion.

1:26:07

I've, I said before that it's like a battle for consciousness, but then sort of it sometimes what I feel like it's really like a battle for free will.

I'm curious if you've been thinking about free will or that concept, because sometimes it, it looks more like the vampire thing where it's like, well, you have to invite the vampire over the threshold.

1:26:24

Like he's not allowed to just come in your house.

And it seems like very often this is more about getting our engineering our consent than just outright over totalitarian control.

Seems like they like to have as much of that as we'll give them, but it's almost like as if we have to give these forces our consent.

1:26:43

Have you arrived at anything similar?

Do you have any comment you'd wanted to adjust that statement?

It seems like we ultimately have control that we we get to make decisions in our life and we can be put in situations like my own where I was under these very thick walls, but they're ultimately things that we can come out of and make decisions on our own.

1:27:03

And even within that thick wall, I had a decision to believe it or not to believe what I was told and I went head on.

The more I learned, the more I was drinking the kool-aid, but it was my decision.

I could have asked questions.

So I do think that there is this inner knowing within all of us, the divine spark.

I don't know how it all works, but there is the part of us that is a pure soul that has the connection to the higher spiritual intelligence, that has connection to God.

1:27:28

That's never going to go away like that.

No matter what we do or what happens in the world, it's always there.

And with that comes free will.

But we can be born in situations that are likened to captivity.

It's a form of captivity to be in states of ignorance, and there's always a way out eventually.

1:27:47

What do you think like we do?

I mean, not, not just like what do we do?

Like what do, what do humans do to fight back the forces?

But like on a personal level or like, for instance, if you, if you know that your fellow person is enslaved in that ignorance you're talking about, you know, like what do you do and what do you do for yourself?

1:28:09

Like how, how do, how do we live here?

You know, you said before that was one of the things you're interested in is like, how do we live here?

I'm curious what you're arrived, what you've arrived at.

I think the meta, this is where I am right now at least, is that we exist to serve God.

We exist to be of service to the creator, and that's the only reason we're here.

1:28:28

And how that manifests for each person might be different, but there is an obligation for us to be of service.

The tricky part is that if you're dealing with people who don't want to hear it, what does one do in that situation?

I remember my first book came out, I wanted to tell everyone about it because I knew how transformational it was for me.

1:28:45

And I'm just like, if you, if you just look at the science, it's going to be so amazing.

And then of course, what happens, Most people don't want to hear about it.

They read the first few pages and throw the book away.

If people are not ready, then there's nothing that we can do.

But I think what we can do is things like this, the podcast goes out.

1:29:02

People don't have to listen to it, but they can.

And so I think our obligation is to make the information accessible and available and to be there for people to help them when they're ready.

But forcing people also doesn't work and can be counterproductive.

Yeah, which I'm sure you know, I'm very interested to read your new book.

1:29:20

That's one of the problems with religion, you know, And that's like maybe the problem with religion.

What do you think service to God looks like?

It's a complex topic, Daniel.

I, I I'm going to leave that to the new book.

OK, really on creation.

1:29:38

Oh man.

OK, yeah, I really want people.

I'm also just playing with this.

Maybe this is an experiment.

When I write books, I really hope people read them.

That's what I and, and I, this new book is really the accumulation of the 1st 7 together and then new stuff on top of it.

1:29:54

And I just, I haven't figured out how to speak about it publicly because there's so much to it and I really want people to read the whole thing.

I think one thing that I found in my own life is that the.

So if I accept this premise we've been talking about, like the idea that dark forces control the world, that they keep us in ignorance, that they have malevolent intentions very often.

1:30:17

I mean, because you can see what's happening to humans, we're kind of being suicided off.

Like our reproduction rates have fallen, our hormone levels have fallen, our intelligence is starting to drop, our lifespan is starting to reverse.

Like we're, we're obviously trending in a really bad direction.

So when I think about, oh, we're being afflicted by dark forces, my, my initial thought is like, Oh, well, let's arm up and go fight these things.

1:30:42

And then I, and then I find that I'm, I'm feeding it with that energy and that it's through love and kindness and compassion and, and redemption seems to be like, these are like weapons that actually push these things back.

1:31:00

That's my experience.

I'm curious how that lands, if that lands for you at all.

But I it doesn't seem that conventional methods of trying to exert force against it do anything but make it worse.

Hence what I just said about religion.

I see religion try to do that all the time and it just seems to like push not only the people away, but actually causes those practitioners to see seem to like fall away from the the true spirit of the religion itself.

1:31:25

I think it's complex because sometimes if a murderer is murdering someone we have to physically intervene.

But I agree with you that just trying to be physically interruptive isn't always the only way.

And we know, for example, from near death experiences where a person is in some kind of physiological trauma.

1:31:42

They have little or no brain activity, and yet their consciousness is hovering over their body.

It's in another room.

They come back into their body and they're accurately, accurately reporting what happened.

So you have verified memories, meaning not hallucinations.

So very, very real things happening to people.

1:31:58

Excuse me.

And in many of these cases, people have a life review where they relive their whole life in a short amount of time and they become each person that they impacted during their life and they feel the direct result of their actions on other people through that person's eyes.

1:32:15

My podcast series Wears My Mind.

I interviewed Daniel Brinkley, who's had multiple near death experiences, and each time he had a life review.

And what he told me is he relived his combat days in Vietnam where he killed people in combat.

And he told me he was vicious.

So he felt what it was like in the life review to be the person that he killed in a vicious manner.

1:32:35

And he felt the pain of the children that no longer had a father because he killed the father in combat.

And then after having that experience the first time, he became a Hospice volunteer because his whole perspective shifted around this question you're asking of how do we really impact the world?

1:32:51

It's by our actions and the the ripple effects.

So he became a Hospice volunteer, not knowing he would have later near death experiences with the life review, which he did have.

So he got to relive those events.

With having done made some corrections.

Having made the corrections exactly, he got to be the dying person in the Hospice bed, looking into his own eyes and seeing the ways that he comforted the dying people.

1:33:16

So he felt the effects, the direct effects of his loving actions on other people.

And we see this throughout the literature, that the little things are the big things.

The way you treat the cashier in line will affect that person's behavior.

And then you can see in the life review that every other person in line was affected by the way you treated the cashier, those little things.

1:33:36

It wasn't what kind of car you drove or how big your business was.

You don't bring those things with you into the afterworld.

It's the the judgement, so to speak, is based on the righteousness and the way that we are conducting ourselves toward other people and the way that ripples throughout all of humanity.

1:33:53

And that's one of the big themes we see.

That's like the lesson my wife has been teaching me for 10 years.

It's like I thought I was like so enlightened, you know, but I was a Dick to everybody because I was so focused on myself, thinking that it was through Project Self that I would escape this control grid that we've been talking about.

1:34:11

And actually like there, there is like kind of no escape if I'm not doing those so far.

So now I'm so much more focused on how can I have a positive influence in small ways.

They felt insignificant.

I was, I had ATV show.

1:34:27

I was a pod.

I'm a podcaster.

I'm always thinking about like, how do you have a bigger effect?

And those little moments are easy to overlook.

But I'm noticing now that those little moments at the end of the day, when I like lay my head down on a pillow, it's like those are the moments that actually are so sweet for me.

1:34:42

Not necessarily being like, yeah, but just many people listen to the show.

So I really agree that it's those, those small things, it's interesting to like in the, there's the in the Christian tradition, there's this idea that you store up your crowns in heaven or like, don't, don't store your riches here on earth where moth and rust corrupts them, store them in heaven.

1:35:02

And then what are those things?

It's these acts you're talking about that cause the ripple of goodness and love through the world.

So, so, so it's like at the end of the day, then it's like the hippie thing.

It's like it's all only about.

It's like all about love and kindness.

I think that's pretty important, but that also involves doing things that are hard.

1:35:20

The kind thing to do and loving thing to do might be look hurtful in the moment.

Like expressing truth can be uncomfortable.

This podcast might be very uncomfortable to certain people, but maybe in the long run, it's very helpful to them because they start analyzing things differently.

So it's it's difficult sometimes to assess the facts other than I think going toward the truth and having the proper intention and using discernment along the way.

1:35:46

Another point I want to add is that in the literature with near death experiences, a very common theme is that there is something all knowing that everything is registered, everything we've done that we've thought about, there's no escaping it.

It's as if, the way I think about it, it's like our life is a camcorder.

1:36:04

Everything is known always.

And I've had some recent experiences.

I did ibogaine, the plant medicine in Mexico.

This comes from an African root, so ancient technology, but a very powerful medicine.

And one of the things I experienced was hints of that.

1:36:21

The very clear knowing that everything in my consciousness has been registered and watched and intelligently in the in the medicine journey was basically shown to me in a manner that I can't explain through normal means.

It was just so intelligent, but it aligns with many other experiences people have had in a much more rigorous and and clear manner of we don't get away with anything.

1:36:41

So to just live life that way of imagine someone is watching everything you do and think because that's true because it's happening, but live that way and really try to watch it.

And when the there's also distinction between a thought and a desire, for example, and an action, we always have choice to look at, OK, this is emerging, but how am I going to act as a result of it?

1:37:01

Am I going to say maybe I shouldn't do this thing that's coming up?

Or maybe in the short term this would be a really good thing to do because it feels good, but in the long term it's not.

So to get really hyper self aware because the ultimate arbiter is always there, Yeah, watch it.

Yeah, wow.

1:37:18

It's like you, it's like this whole method brings you back around to all these ancient truths.

We all have them in all our sacred books.

Like there we all know this stuff, but we we've gone this very circuitous route to prove it to ourselves or something, the wisdom of our ancestors.

1:37:36

Back to your thought about the, you know, you, you mentioning the brain as a transducer or the brain as an antenna.

You know, you look at one of these molecules and I and ibogaine I'm not really familiar with, but you know, DMT, selassibine, any of these, you know, mescaline, you look at this like serotonin, like chemical and you're like, how is this intelligence I'm experiencing possibly coming from this molecule?

1:37:59

Can't it can't all that I experienced on one of these medicines can't be in that molecule.

That can't make any sense.

Therefore, there has to be some field of intelligence, vast field of intelligence that I'm accessing with this molecule.

Yeah.

1:38:16

Before we go, what role do these medicines play in all of this that we've talked about?

Because it seems like you can't disambiguate all of these things.

You know, we are we're in this moment where it's like UAPNHINDE, psychedelic drugs, AI, like all these things all at once and they seem all somehow related threads that how do you know what role does do you think the entheogens play in all of this?

1:38:44

I'm still trying to figure that out for myself because I'm not sold on them fully as being good things.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think they can be helpful.

They can be helpful in unique circumstances, but there are a lot of potential problems within it.

For me, I I stayed away for a long time For these reasons.

1:39:03

Number one, it's opening us up to other dimensions, and those dimensions don't always have good things in them, and we don't necessarily have the discernment to be able to know how to deal with that.

We could think this being is a benevolent one because it's so intelligent and wow, and so spiritual, and therefore I'm going to listen to what it says.

But how do we know it's not deceptive?

1:39:19

And likewise, when insights come in in these altered states, how do we know to trust the insights?

How do we know how to make sense of it?

It's very complex.

And then on the other side, there are people who have miraculous healing.

So I do think as a healing modality, there might be utility for it.

And then also from a spiritual perspective, there's certain elements of my writings that I've written about before.

1:39:37

And when I entered these states, it was all the sudden very expense, experientially clear that the source of reality is divine.

Like you're not going to be able to convince me otherwise anymore because I was there and it was not new.

1:39:54

It was more familiar than anything in this world.

It was something that I just forgot.

So the spiritual is real.

And there's value to that because it helps to cement more of the things that I've been talking about and learning of, Oh no, this is real.

And we have some kind of amnesia to it.

1:40:11

And there's value in that.

But I think that it can become recreationalized.

And I see that where it's people just do one journey after the next after the next.

And it's in the name of healing.

But at a certain point, the medicine shows you something and you can take it or leave it and then implement in your life.

1:40:27

I don't think we're supposed to be in that altered state.

I'm sure it's ibogaine for me was really not fun.

It was brutal.

But there are other experiences that are like fun and you're connected to your soul.

What could be better than that?

But then trying to seek that through an alternate, through a plant means or chemical means, I think we got to be really careful about all this. 100% agree.

1:40:47

It's also really interesting, like having gone down to the jungle, for instance, or into the desert to do these medicines with people who come from more like long unbroken lineages, and they have somebody basically doing battle for you all night in the spirit realm while you do this.

1:41:03

It's not like it's just your buddy and you're at a party.

It's like some guy dressed in feathers and paint who's like singing and fighting and protecting you from witches and demons and spirit beings all night while you're like having your experience.

And that's how the cultures have developed around those medicines.

1:41:21

You know, it wasn't like a recreational experience.

So I really agree with that.

I just, you seem like somebody, Mark, I would love to have one-on-one time where you weren't filtering for the public because I really would love to drill down on some of this.

1:41:37

And I feel like we're OK.

You know, there's only so much you really want to say, which I respect, especially, you know, with your career, your background in your books.

But you know, I'd love to know what you speculate about that.

You know, there's a, these are all topics that I, my life, I've just always been obsessed with this.

1:41:57

I always have wondered my whole life.

Like I just assumed everybody was thinking about this stuff.

And then as I grew up, it was like, oh, nobody's thinking about this stuff, you know, And then it's like, am I the crazy one?

And then piece by piece, start real life like, and it is such a validating time for me to be alive because as all this stuff starts to become mainstream conversation and enter the zeitgeist, it's like, I'm not crazy.

1:42:21

I was just like a little ahead of my time too early.

I came to it too early or something.

But now it seems like we can have these conversations publicly.

Like, I mean, I'm sure even since you started writing the books, it must feel like so much more space is opening up every year for conversations like these, you know, and, and the trend line of where your books go, It's so cool.

1:42:42

When's your book coming out and when?

What can we expect?

October 2026, it looks like.

Well, that's close.

And an end to upside down creation, God, Torah, Jesus and re examining religion.

So I will leave it there and just hope your audience checks it out.

1:42:58

I hope you go easy on Jesus.

He's my man.

What?

Where else?

And what else do we want to let people know before we go?

All the books are on Amazon and you can get them in hard copy kindle and audible formats.

And also my podcast is a good place to start from 2019.

1:43:14

Where is my mind?

It's on Spotify, Apple podcast, all the major players, and if you listen to it I recommend starting with the first episode and going through episode 8 in order.

Is this the last book or do you think you'll keep going?

I don't know, man.

I thought Cosmos was the last book and then this one came, so I'm not.

1:43:30

I don't even think of myself as an author.

People call me an author and it's kind of weird for me because I've.

Lost my life for sure.

I get I, I'm someone who has written, I will say that I have written in the past and I don't know if I will continue to.

And I'm, I'm working on docu series related to the science of consciousness and that will probably come out, I don't know, maybe 2027 or 2028 and.

1:43:51

I met her on a platform.

Being produced independently to start and then we'll see which platforms pick it up.

I'm working with producers from New York.

Cool man.

Mark, it's been a pleasure today.

Thank you so much for your time.

You as well.

Thanks for having me on.