Transcript: Forgiveness Is A Weapon — Luke Storey #017

0:01

In order to deliver some teachings that I think could be useful to people, I had to go deep into my story.

There's a lot of talk about God and spirituality, but there's also going to orgies and doing webcam porn and, you know, smoking crack with prostitutes.

I had a therapist one time say to me, how did you not become a drug addict?

0:18

I don't understand.

And I was like, oh, I just, I kind of did.

I just only I had a rule that I would only do plant medicines and that saved my ass.

Yeah, I want to feel connected to myself, to God, to the world.

I don't want to be in separation.

I've lived in separation for far too long.

And so if I'm resentful and I'm holding a grudge, that's just another brick in the wall of my separation.

0:39

Now, I don't want to be connected to that person I'm forgiving at all.

That's the whole point.

But I want to be connected to everyone else and not have a heart full of hate.

But when I think about the weapons that I use spiritually, they're not intuitive.

Like it's love.

It's like, how is that a weapon against darkness?

0:56

But it is, you know, and forgiveness is a weapon against darkness.

If.

You've dedicated your life to exploiting, harming, raping, killing people.

I mean, your life carries on after you leave this body.

I'm sorry to tell you, but whatever realm you're going to go to after you leave this body, I really wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.

1:19

Host of the Lifestylist podcast, Luke's story is a leading voice in personal development, spirituality and cutting edge health innovations.

Renowned as a speaker, author and top podcast host, Luke delivers long form interviews with experts in alternative health, spirituality and personal development, illuminating a path to deeper meaning, emotional freedom and physical vitality in a direct and relatable style.

1:47

He's just debuted his first book, a horse named Lonesome Luke.

Welcome to the show.

Man, so good to see you.

It's funny, we have to see you.

We haven't chatted in a while, and I feel like there's all kinds of things I want to talk about with you that we probably would either bore or offend people on a podcast.

2:06

Well.

We'll, we'll catch up here and then we'll have to have a post call next week or something there.

Yeah, there is a lot I want to talk to you about, but I mean bro, you just put out a book like it's such a big deal.

You know, I'm really excited for you.

It's something that I've sat down so many, you know, the number of like you know, 20,030 thousand, 40,000 word pieces that I've done that I've just never, you know, it's like digging that 4 foot hole looking for water and the water's 5 feet down and I just congratulate you on making it, you know, to a well.

2:36

Thank you so much.

I remember years ago when you had a publishing deal or were close to putting a book out and you decided it wasn't aligned for you for whatever reason at that time.

And I was disappointed because I love your writing and your speaking.

And I was like, dude, just do it.

2:52

Figure it out.

But yeah, I always wrote a lot online.

But I, you know, you weren't somebody who wrote a lot online.

At least I didn't see you write a lot online.

So when I first got a digital copy of your book, it was like, you know, it's that thing.

It's like you hope your friends stuff won't be cringe, you know what I mean?

3:08

And I was just really, I was so nervous.

And right away, man, you had me hooked.

I'm really impressed with what you've accomplished.

Oh, thank you so much.

It's been such, it's been such a transformative experience for me in so many ways.

3:25

It just, you know, delving up a lot of things in my past that have definitely been addressed and healed, but you know, to to get into writing a book that whose intention is to really move people and have an impact means I had to go deeper in many ways than I've gone before.

3:46

There's a certain, there's a certain experience when you're being totally objective about something and trying to share it versus the inner work that we do, however we do it.

So I'm just like, so glad to be out of it.

Right.

You know, there's just so many painful things that I wrote about.

4:03

And of course, on the other side of that is a lot of growth and hopefully wisdom to share.

But in order to extract that wisdom, I have to go deep into the mine.

And, you know, thankfully I have a flashlight, but still, man, you run into some bats in there.

You know, the air quality diminishes at certain points.

4:20

It gets rough, you know, So I'm just like, woo, Oh my God.

That was, you know, a solid three years really of just grinding and grinding.

And yeah, it, it really is a great accomplishment.

And and also I'm hoping a way that I can be of service differently, you know, than than how I have been over the past few years.

4:41

I know I have my own little corner of the world of impact, but I have a lot more to say.

And what I really want to say is much deeper than physical health and some of the things that I'm known for.

That's what really stood out to me.

I remember years ago you told me you were going to start writing, and at the time the book you had thought you would write was like, couldn't be more different, right?

5:02

I think you were initially thinking you were going to write a book about, you know, physical health hacks and like, lifestyle stuff.

And a couple years go by and I see what you're writing and it's like, oh, wow, Not only really different, but the level of vulnerability kind of blew me away.

5:22

I'm curious, you know, to write about health stuff is remote enough.

There's not the exposure.

It actually, you can really present yourself as the hero, right, or like as the the savior or whatever.

But the way that this actually came together, you know, there's this level of vulnerability in this exposure and this like nakedness to the reader that I think few people could probably drum up the courage.

5:50

So I'm curious now that it's out in the world, like, how has that been?

Because, you know, I know I've shared things online before where you just you, you afterward, you, you hit like publish and then you sit back and it's like, oh boy, how's this going to be received, you know?

I'm so glad you picked up on that when I turned the book in a couple months ago.

6:08

I mean, you know, as I'm sure you and many people know, there's a lot of iterations of edits and it keeps getting more refined and more refined as you go.

And then you get to a phase called copy editing, which is, you know, looking for typos, fact checking, things like that, adding citations that might be needed if you're quoting someone or making a medical claim and so on.

6:29

So I get to the point of copy editing and it's no longer in a Word document.

Now it's in APDF, but it's only, and the PDFs get fewer pages as you go, right?

Because whatever you've signed off on is now in a vault, right?

And so when I finally turned in the, I think it was two or three pages with just a couple, I don't know, spelling errors or whatever.

6:51

It was nothing really significant.

Once I turned that in, rather than having a sense of relief and gratitude and accomplishment, I went into a pretty hardcore vulnerability hangover.

7:07

You know.

Because then I, it's like when you're sitting here, I'm sitting here writing by myself, which is irony in itself because I'm writing a book about loneliness and connection and I'm doing it by myself for a couple years, seeing very few people in the process.

So I'm just insulated in my own little world and writing and writing and the way I communicate is just, I don't know, honest and authentic.

7:29

I just don't, I don't really know how to sugarcoat things.

That's just how I communicate because I'm someone who is very interested in depth.

Yeah, it's like if I'm.

But.

You're kind.

I wanna say that when you say that, like I don't sugarcoat.

Sometimes people say that and they mean that they deliver it in a bitter hard way.

7:47

But I think that you are very so emotionally intelligent in your delivery that it might not.

Be sugar.

I guess you could say unfiltered might be a better way to say it because I'm definitely not a confrontational person.

Part of my growth edge is like learning how to be more confrontational when it's appropriate, which is historically been difficult for me.

8:08

But yeah, just being insulated in the process of I mean, I'm writing about a meta theme, you know, which is relational loneliness and then existential separation, kind of just spiritual disconnection, right?

So there's layers to it and in order to deliver some teachings that I think could be useful to people, I had to go deep into my story.

8:30

But I'm doing it all by myself, right?

Kind of.

You're not thinking about who's going to read it or how it's going to be received or what people are going to think and so on.

So now that I'm practicing for the audiobook, I'm reading through thing, you know, there's, I mean, there's a lot of talk about God and spirituality, but there's also going to orgies and doing webcam porn and, you know, smoking crack with prostitutes.

8:51

And, I mean, the book definitely embraces the sacred and the profane and equal measure because that's what was necessary in order to, you know, get my message across.

But yeah, there have been many times where I'm like, ah, did I really need to put that in there?

9:06

Yeah, what are people going to think?

But it's it's such a beautiful experience because I have enough self-awareness that I know the part of me that is embarrassed or afraid or is going to feel judged or get trolled.

It's not me.

Anyway.

That's an artifact of me called the ego.

9:24

And I even wrote about that in the book.

I said, yeah, well, I'm writing the book.

Sometimes the inner editors like you should, you should stand the edges off that.

That's a little too embarrassing or a little too vulnerable.

And I know who that is.

And I am choosing not to listen to that part of myself.

So yeah, now it's it's it's kind of, you know, there's no take backs.

9:44

The Internet is forever.

But I think the printed books are maybe even more forever, right?

They could end up buried in someone's backyard and in 500 years come up.

But I think the thing that really saves me from that is just applying some humility to it and just realizing like, I'm not that important.

10:01

And what what people think of me is literally none of my business has nothing to do with me.

It has everything to do with their own perception and their own perception is theirs to have as a sovereign human, you know, So I'm just going to stay in my lane and do my thing.

10:16

And, and I think part of the, the reason I was able to be really vulnerable in the book and share with such, you know, just such an intimate kind of dialogue with the readers, because the, the readers and thought leaders and teachers that have really moved me were people that had that kind of capacity, you know, and, and those are the ones that gave me permission.

10:38

I remember years ago, I mean, I started my podcast 10 years ago and I remember listening to a show and the guy was talking about having been molested when he was a kid.

And I was just like, what?

Wow, yeah.

Dude, you just said that on your podcast, you know, and then I thought, well, why not?

10:55

I mean, there are a few, few things more important on the, you know, the spiritual path or the path of personal development and growth than getting honest about, you know, the experiences in your life and how they impacted you and how you've been able to overcome them.

11:11

So I hope that in my embarrassing vulnerability in writing this book, that it will give other people permission to just get real.

You know, it's like the world is so full of falsehood and deception from every angle.

I mean, there's, it's so hard to find something real.

11:29

And when I find something real, a person, a teaching, a book, whatever, like I cling to it for dear life because it's so rare.

It's, it's such a rare commodity.

And so my hope is that people read my book and I don't know, I'm sure a few people will judge me because I've had a very colorful life experience.

11:45

But at the end of the day, it's like, what are we all doing here?

You know what, what's what's going on?

What's the point?

Isn't the point to get to the depths of reality and gain a greater understanding of our self and of humanity and, and of God and this whole experience we're having?

12:01

So Oh well, too late, too late now, you know.

Hey wait, don't skip through this.

I've got an important message for you.

For years I've been asked when I'll start offering one-on-one coaching or mentoring.

After years of living on the road making the Wild Fed TV show, I'm finally settled down and opening up my schedule to some video based coaching sessions.

12:23

I'm offering individual or ongoing one hour and 90 minute time slots to a select number of people who are looking for mentoring and lifestyle coaching.

Of course my areas of focus are food and nutrition, self healthcare, and nature based healthy living.

But I'm also a subject matter expert on wild foods with a focus on getting folks started in the hunting, fishing and foraging space.

12:46

And while I'm not a therapist, I'm happy to discuss relational, spiritual and even existential matters.

Having started a successful business and several other successful projects, including my sixth season TV show, Wild Fed, I also have some expertise in creating value based brands.

13:02

Now my time slots are limited, but I'm keeping my rates very reasonable, especially throughout the rest of 2026.

So if you're interested in working together, contact me at info@danielvitalis.com to learn more.

I am sincerely really looking forward to getting to know you and seeing you achieve some of your personal goals.

13:23

Oh, I think it's fantastic, man.

I really, really respect it.

I think.

I think it makes space for a lot of people to because some people will have experiences in their past that they won't even really allow themselves to remember that they've had or look at ever.

13:38

Or because it's like a blind spot, they can't see how it's impacting their current life, even though it would be obvious to an outsider if they knew.

And then also there's got to be this sense of freedom that comes from airing all of that where you're like, well, that's out there now.

13:54

So now I'm it's no longer like lurking in the shadows, like with people find out about this.

If people find out about that, it's like, you just put it out there and you're free.

And then, you know, this other thing I want to say, you know, just last night, I've been really wanting to watch this documentary that came out about that breakdance girl from the Olympics break gun, you know?

14:16

And so they made a documentary about it.

And yeah, if you remember, she just had this like, really cringe performance, but I didn't know what any of the story was.

And I watched it.

And by the end, I'm like, oh, she's amazing.

Like I love this girl, you know, like this really vulnerable experience and it endears somebody to you so much.

14:36

So I just have a feeling people who know and love you are going to know and love you even more.

I know I do, you know, like it was really cool.

And I also want to say that because I grew up pretty rough, when I'm amongst people who I consider like high class, I'm always amazed at how they always have like some family member with major constant drama crisis or, you know, like you do you still find people who are nobody's like immune from all this stuff, You know, like we all have stuff in our background and stories, you know, like I thought I had it because of how I grew up, but then I get out in the world and you're like, oh, everybody's got stories or family stories or whatever.

15:13

So, yeah, let's zoom out a little bit, tell people about the book and, and I'd love to hear how you went from, you know, what people what you're most known for, which is, you know, lifestyle hacks.

It's it's health stuff.

It's sort of like sometimes even on the extreme and, and most cutting edge and fringe side of like what's going on in the health space.

15:34

How do you go from there to writing this memoir, which is like.

So I think probably your best contribution personally, but not really in the scope of what's like sort of what you're most known for.

Yeah, I mean, thinking back years ago, the kind of content I was creating was very much like immersive journalism.

15:54

So I'd go get genital stem cell injections and like live stream it.

I just, I'm just someone who likes to push the edge, right?

I've been, I've been sober for almost 30 years and you know, so I'm not extreme in the ways that I used to be.

16:10

That is self-destructive, but I would say I, I, I still have a tendency to be pretty obsessive and compulsive about things.

And when I got sober, that shifted toward let me see how long I can meditate or how many days in silence or how long I can fast or how hardcore I can take this thing.

16:29

Yet at the same time, I mean, it's like there's a you, you have kind of a public persona.

And for me, the way that I've been able to support myself is by sharing health technology and things like that.

And that's something I've always been into for a long time.

But in a way, I was sort of, I mean, before I started my podcast, I was kind of living a double life in the sense that I was working in Hollywood, in the entertainment industry as a celebrity fashion stylist.

16:54

So I dressed rock stars and, and, you know, actors and actresses and things like that.

And that was my job and I never really fit in there because it wasn't something about which I was truly passionate.

It's just a career that I kind of fell into.

And I had no other skills or education.

17:10

And you know, it was better than waiting tables or playing in a, in a band that doesn't make any money.

And so I was doing that.

But all of the rest of my time was spent in working on my health and just research and travel and going to India and spiritual practices, Kundalini yoga, every kind of self help and therapy and all the things.

17:32

So to me, the whole point has always been the inner work and and true transformation and the physical aspect of it is just to create enough vitality and clarity so that I can do the mental, emotional and spiritual work that I'm actually here to do.

17:51

But I think because a lot of the public facing stuff that I've done has been more kind of in the realm of biohacking and whatnot, many people don't know what I'm really about.

So that's one of the things that's most exciting about writing a book that has nothing to do with any of that.

In fact, I reached out to a friend, Peter Crone.

18:09

I was just texting people like you.

Thank you for the endorsement, by the way.

That really meant a lot to me, truly as someone who was a huge inspiration to me at the beginning of this journey.

And and Peter's like, you know, I sent him, I sent him the PDF of the early manuscript and he was flipping through and it's like, oh, this is really cool.

18:26

I thought it was about going to be about biohacking.

And I'm just like, that's the whole point.

That's that's why I did this.

You know, I mean, I think all that stuff is fun, but it's just novelty, you know, it's just, it's, it's not going to bring the kind of fulfillment that I think many people believe it's going to.

18:41

I mean, if you haven't dealt with your traumas, addictions, negative thinking, whatever, no amount of physical health and you know, perfect blood work is going to get you there.

And I've learned that myself through many experiments.

So it's really exciting to me to get into what the purpose of my soul's Earth quest is.

19:06

Like, what are, what are we actually doing here?

What's, what's the point?

And and I've arrived at least at this time in my life that the point for me is learning how to love myself, the totality of existence, God, the whole thing.

And in order to do that, I have to see through the very convincing and hypnotic duality in which we live.

19:31

So it's like, how can I apply a non dual perspective that allows me to live life with less friction and less separation and as the topic of my book, less loneliness, but also be here, you know, and just acknowledge and accept and be grateful for the fact that I'm in this material world or simulation or whatever it is, right?

19:52

So it's like I'm not trying to escape it like I once was because it's not painful to me anymore.

It's more like, wow, how can I, how can I be like God and still accept that I am subject to the limitations of being human?

20:09

And for me that means like be more human, right?

It's like.

That I think that goes back to just being, just being real.

Like let's just have honest conversations about what what's on our hearts and, and, you know, build the capacity to truly connect with people.

20:25

You know, so much of our communication, the way we interact is so superficial.

And if you're someone like me that is really craving depth and and true intimacy and safety, that's tedious, you know?

So I've done everything I can to just at least kind of show the world who I am and what I'm about and what I believe and what I've learned so that when I'm out in the world, I can connect with like minded people who are willing to have that kind of depth.

20:57

And not that everything has to be serious.

I mean, I mean depth, yeah.

Depth is.

Is authenticity.

I mean, depth could be like farting in front of my wife and I find it hilarious.

Like that's depth because I'm not afraid she's going to judge or abandoned me.

You know what I mean?

21:12

I mean, that's a silly example, but I just, I think there's so much freedom and authenticity and what's beneath that authenticity is a soul that came to this realm to evolve.

And so how can I take all of these, you know, painful experiences and suffering that I and everyone else has had and transmute them into a kind of a, a model for living?

21:37

It's crazy how there's like a fuse burning or a clock ticking on your lifespan and you can let a lot of time go by before you realize like what the point is, you know what I mean?

You could be like fifty, 6070 years old and be like, oh, I want to like start loving.

21:58

And then it's like, oh, but there's all this shadow in me and it's like, Oh, no, I got to like start the sanctification process.

It's like, I wish I had started this when I was a lot younger.

You know, like there's that sort of like when you're talking about dualism, it's like, that's one of the challenges is there's a temporal component to this dimension that we're in, this life that we're in, this world we're in.

22:16

And, and the sooner you can get started on that, the better.

And that I don't want to, I want to harken back to what you're saying before, because one of the traps, there's like a lot of like, I just think of it like a video game, you know?

And there's just like a lot of traps you can fall into and spend a lot of time.

And one of those is the thinking that I'll perfect myself through my diet, I'll perfect myself through the biohacking by getting my levels right.

22:41

You can spend a lot of time on that, right?

There's so many of these, right?

It's like I'm going to get it through sex.

I'm going to get it through money.

I'm going to.

But one of them and one I think that a lot of the people listening to this are familiar with, they're either excited about it still, they haven't like gone to the end of it, or they're in it now, or they've come to the end of it and they're realizing exactly what we're talking about.

23:02

And that's like that you can't eat your way, hack your way, perfect your way to what it is you're looking for, because the health you're after is actually meant to just be the baseline that you start from anyway, You know what I mean?

23:19

Like the, the game's set up in such a way that you, most of us have like a health deficit and we got to like work our way up to level.

But once you're at level, there's not like a place to go from there.

Like, well, now that I'm healthy, I'm going to get Uber healthy.

There is an Uber healthy, there's just healthy, you know, like there's nowhere to go from there, right?

23:35

But like, but people will get stuck in that.

So they'll keep doing things to try to add more and add more.

And it's like, oh, you got that.

Now turn inward, you know, so I think it can be, Yeah.

I'm kind of curious about your process with that because I know that like, even when we met now, I think it's probably been like 18 years or something.

23:54

We've known each other.

But going back to those early days, it wasn't like you, you were just like only thought about health, Like you were doing all this other work too.

I think, you know, probably part of your recovery process and stuff.

But I am kind of curious, like at what point did you realize that like your health was only, I don't know what the word is for it, but it's just sort of like that's mundane.

24:15

Like it's not, that's not the real thing.

That's just that's important to have because the vehicle, if the vehicle is healthy, I can drive to the destination better.

But like, but that's all that is right.

Like this vehicle is going to get left behind, you know?

Yeah, that.

That's exactly it.

And another side of it, too, is preoccupation with the body is fertile ground for egoic identity.

24:41

You know, I mean, I, I think one of the things that I'm really trying to hammer home in my book is that you are not your body.

You know, if you're not your body, which is really convincing because you look in the mirror and you can see your soul through your own eyes.

So you think, well, those are my eyes.

24:58

They're in a body.

Therefore, this is who and what I am.

But having had multitudes of experiences, especially in the realm of antheogens, I, I am absolutely positive there's no shadow of doubt that I am not this body and I'm not even Luke's story and I'm not a white male.

25:17

I'm not any of those things, right?

So.

Story's a story, yeah.

Exactly.

Exactly.

So then what am I?

That's really, that's the question for me.

It's not even who am I, what am I?

And that's a really interesting question to me.

So I mean, you've said it perfectly.

25:33

It's that, you know, getting to a place where you, you know, have appreciation and gratitude and love for the body, but it's a vehicle for my soul to do what it's here to do.

And so I think that physical health is really important because it takes vitality to do the rest of the work, right?

25:53

If you're going to get into, you know, working on your trauma, your emotional issues, your mindset, I mean, try doing that with sleep deprivation or a chronic disease or, or, you know, or, you know, possibly fatal disease.

I mean, if you're dying of cancer, you know, good luck on healing your inner child, right?

26:12

You're just, you're in like baseline survival.

So I think at least getting the body to a point of functionality and metabolic energy so that then you actually have time to work on yourself enough so that you have enough to offer that you can move your life into a place of contribution and service.

26:34

Because that's the name of the game.

You know, for me, like, that's really the only thing that brings me true joy.

It's you.

It's not from getting a new watch.

No, and it's it's not from getting, you know, like a certain weight or muscle mass or whatever either.

26:52

You know it's, but it's really.

Difficult.

Your telomere length?

Yeah, no.

But it's really difficult to be of service when you're trying to get the body to survive, you know, so.

It's like hard to meditate and pray when you're in pain or it's like, yeah, right.

Or like I can only give this reminds me, this is just like fundamental idea and emergency medicine and rescue.

27:11

Like if you are a lifeguard or EMT or something like that, paramedic, there's this concept like when you arrive on a scene, the very first thing you have to do is assess the safety of the scene before, because the your tendencies don't want to rush into the person who you see needs help.

But if that's an unsafe situation, you become a victim.

27:30

If you don't swim well and you run into the water, now there's two victims, you and the other person, and now you've made the situation worse, not better.

And so I think in that way, like if I can be healthy enough, I'm much more equipped to help many more people, but I'm only so equipped to help anybody if I don't do some of this work on myself first, right?

27:49

I, I am blown away.

So I turned 48 in a couple days and I can't believe I've had a lot of like cry.

I like, I've had to cry a lot about this.

How much of my life I wasted being selfish.

28:06

It's like crushes my soul a little bit.

I really only learned this in contrast with my wife.

It was like a combination of sort of like this, like following Christ path that I've been on plus like my marriage and the two things have shown me.

28:23

I thought I was doing it right.

I thought that selfishness I had was like, that's because the world wants you to be unhealthy.

That's because the world wants you to be poor.

That's because the world wants you to be stupid.

Like I'm not letting that happen.

I'm going to focus on myself, you know, And meanwhile there's this concept, you know, like that Christ always talks about, like storing up your treasures in heaven that are like you're the good things you do for people, you know, like those are like crowns or treasures in heaven.

28:50

And my wife's just got like chests full of this stuff and I've got like almost nothing because I just focused on myself for so long, you know, and now I'm like, oh, shoot, it's getting late in the game.

That's that fuse I was talking about.

And like, I'm like, oh, nothing feels good anymore, except like I like to train.

29:08

I worked out a bunch today.

It feels good, but it's not like nourishing my soul.

It's just so that I can then go nourish my soul by these acts of service and kindness and love and spreading, you know, healthy things around.

But yeah, like, I feel like I've wasted a lot of time.

29:25

Like if, if our conversation can do anything to spur younger people to start this work sooner, like that would be the most valuable outcome, you know?

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, I think that's one of the downsides of personal optimization is it's, it's a very self-centered by nature, right?

29:44

And so if you get caught in that loop of working on myself, working on myself, there's not a lot of bandwidth left to be other centered right to put yourself out there.

And that's what for me at least, gives my life meaning and purpose, you know, just watching someone heal, helping to facilitate someone.

30:06

You know, I spent a lot of time in in addiction recovery.

And so I mean, you've met some of the guys I, I used to sponsor back in California.

And I mean, I still get text from those guys.

Oh, I just had another kid.

You know, I just started this new company and I'm just like, and they'll thank me.

30:21

You know, this is the years ago, right?

And all I was doing was just trying to stay sober myself.

And, you know, I started to kind of glean the value in thinking about other people and thinking less about myself, which is one of the primary principles in the 12 steps, you know, and, and I think back to those times and it's like, wow, I, I didn't even know the impact that I was having, but apparently I spent enough time and energy and love with some of those guys that their, their lives are still thriving.

30:50

You know, I was able to pass some things on to them that had been passed on to me.

And it was all just for fun and for free, right?

I wasn't like an online coach.

There was no mastermind.

You know, I was like, there was none of that.

It's just a guy calls me crying, dude, I just got fired because I punched my boss or whatever.

31:06

You know, it's like, OK, come on over, let's talk.

And, and literally all we would do is just hammer spiritual principles.

Just go deep into universal laws.

Like what?

What makes this world work and what are the things we do that that prevent it from working in ways that it should?

31:24

You know, So I think there's, there's a lot of folly in getting self absorbed and selfishness is something that took me a long time to overcome.

And I, you know, I don't fault myself for it because I was just trying to survive.

You know, I had, I had so many unhealed wounds from my childhood and even from my birth that I was just completely unaware of that were driving me and preventing me from really feeling safe ever.

31:52

And so to create a sense of safety, I had to insulate myself in self obsession.

33:06

And you live in a culture that I've just recently read a book that was sort of highlighting the difference between our culture and like, collectivist cultures, which you still have some of, you know, not just in like indigenous peoples in some places where their lifestyles are intact.

33:23

But you know, even in parts of Asia and stuff where you have still like a more collectivist mindset where it's not about like, you know, America.

It's just, you know, it's me, me, me, me, me, right.

And like, I, like, I can't let go of this thing I heard Jordan Peterson say once, which is like, the more you focus on yourself, the more miserable you'll be.

33:41

Or the more time you spend thinking about yourself, the more miserable you'll be.

And so it's like, I was just thinking now as you were talking, if you were like on your deathbed right now, it's like thinking about those guys you've helped and all of the ways that they've reached out to say you help them.

Like thinking about that versus thinking about like all the time you spent on a vibration plate with a red laser up your nose.

34:02

You know what I mean?

It's like, there's no, there's no right?

That's like completely the last thing you care about.

Talk to you about this loneliness piece because it's, it's like obviously a growing epidemic like this is issues ongoing.

It has been going on for generations, of course.

34:19

But I mean, now we're at like this moment where I've been really noticing it, Luke, since the chat bots started to come out.

Like I'll be home sometimes I'll be like, man, I haven't, I've really heard from anybody all day, you know, like days where it's like, it used to just be a lot more personal communication going back and forth with people.

34:40

And now I find I'm like having to really like reach out to people more and more.

And like I have a handful of people that I feel like I go pretty deep with now.

But I find like a lot of my more peripheral friends of sort of like everybody's just kind of like so engrossed.

I think everybody's just like in, in their phones, everybody's in their computers.

34:59

And the loneliness is growing and growing and, and people don't maybe realize they're feeding it, but kind of curious how you look at it having just spent three years like so focused on it.

Like what What's going on exactly at this loneliness epidemic?

Well.

One thing that is pretty clear to me is that the Internet and social media are definitely a double edged sword and there's so much nuance to it.

35:23

It's like you and I are able to have this conversation here.

I'm in Texas, you're in Maine.

We can have, you know, some some depth of intimacy that would be less so if we were on the phone, right?

So great.

That's that's wonderful.

35:39

I can see you.

I can hear you.

I can't give you a hug.

You know, I'm not picking up your pheromones that I'm not, you know, your, your auric field is not bouncing off mine.

But you know, we're in we're in a realm where, you know, the quantum entanglement is real.

35:54

So I think we can connect without any technology and be in totally different places, right?

It's like that phenomenon of thinking about someone and they call you kind of thing.

So it's like a beautiful thing that we're so interconnected all over the world, yet at the same time, we're settling for a facsimile of connection that feels real, especially in social media, because we're getting the fulfillment from dopamine, right?

36:25

It's like you're waiting for someone to comment on a post or you text someone, you're waiting for them to text back and you get these little, these little hits, right?

Whereas if you walk in a room full of four or five people that you're pretty connected to and you're giving some hugs and you're hanging out and you know, you're feeling a physical space together, you're getting oxytocin.

36:45

I mean, you're getting, you know, the lifeblood, not just the energetics of it, but you're getting the biochemistry of it, right.

So we've kind of traded 1 biochemical signal for another without knowing it.

I mean, we don't who sits around thinking about this stuff?

37:02

I mean, if you write a book about it, you think about it because I'm trying to unpack like, what is what is going on here?

You know why are we more connected than ever, yet the loneliness epidemic is more prevalent than ever at the same time?

Like what is happening here?

It's also interesting how back in like sci-fi, like, you know, when I would watch Star Trek and they would communicate with their little comms thing, I never thought about like, Oh yeah, but they're not really together.

37:25

Like, I wonder how that is, you know, like, oh, he's communicating with Earth from the ship.

He hasn't been there in 2 decades.

Like, I wonder how it feels to see those people but not be with it.

Like it was just kind of like the predictive programming of it was all just like, it's all good.

And then you get it and you're like, oh, it's not quite as good as real life was in a sense, you know?

37:44

Yeah, exactly.

And so adding to that, I think that the ways in which we communicate, our capacity for communication is being diminished.

We don't even, I mean, I'm guilty of this too.

We don't even write full words anymore.

It's like when I say thanks to someone, it's T what is it?

38:03

THX or whatever, right.

I.

Still do it.

I still use like full punctuation and everything.

It's so embarrassing.

I write like I'm like I'm from not even a boomer, like I'm from the silent generation.

I write like my mother, I mean.

Keep it up, keep it up, man.

I I mean.

It's cumbersome.

I'm like always correcting and editing my texts.

38:20

That's, that's, well, depending on who I'm texting and why.

I mean, you know, there, there is a case for presenting yourself in a, you know, professional manner in some cases and whatnot.

But yeah, I mean, the fact is it's just we're all conditioned by technology.

38:35

The way that we communicate, also the way that we take in information and share information has changed, right?

There's no sitting around a fire in a small tribe that you know, in your world like was just out hunting, risking their life all day and comes home to feed, right?

38:53

And we're singing songs and dancing and telling stories about the ancestors.

I mean, this is all but gone and it's really our natural lifeway.

And so it's been replaced by basically a projection of that, right?

39:10

It's like our fire is now your little crew on Instagram or your text group on WhatsApp.

And, you know, we're getting kind of a diluted fulfillment of those basic needs, but also forgetting how to fulfill those needs when we are with people.

39:27

And, and I've noticed this myself, especially just sitting here staring at a computer for the past couple years.

I mean, I just really had to shut out everything in my life that wasn't absolutely necessary in terms of, you know, my work and whatnot.

And I'm finding now I'm, I'm like unsocialized, right?

39:43

Just because I've been in communicating digitally with most people, with the exception of my wife and a couple other people here and there.

But as I'm getting back out into the world now, it's like I, I feel this kind of strange social anxiety because I haven't been practicing the skill of relating.

So I think at the same time that we're relating with more people with more immediacy, we're also just losing the innate skill for relating at the same time.

40:09

And like, you know, one of the places that shows up, I think is it's pretty uncommon now for people to really know their neighbors.

It's amazing.

You know, like, I really wish that the people who lived in the area around me, like we were a team, but we're not.

And in fact, we're often at odds, you know, and, and then I think like about I, I can't, I can't project myself out like 20 years and not see a major crisis, you know, So like, at some point I may really want to have those relationships with my neighbors and I don't have them.

40:43

And it's unfortunate.

And like recently there's somebody who lives, you know, down the road from me and they're getting older, you know, and when they moved into the neighborhood, they, they were older, but not elderly.

But like, that's changed.

And the other day I see like a private ambulance and I saw, you know, I could see that they've installed a ramp and it's like, oh, wow, they're losing their you know, like they're aging and they're losing their ability to get around.

41:09

And it's like, I have not been there to, you know, like they live right down the road from me.

And it's just like, I'm all this time goes by, you know, it's like, or somebody has a baby and you think like, oh, I really want to be a part of that kids life.

And then all of a sudden that kids like 10 and you're like, man, I have not, I did not do it, you know, And it takes so much.

41:31

It's kind of like if a friend says like, Oh yeah, let's get dinner sometime, it's like if you don't put it in the calendar, like it's probably not going to happen, you know?

And it's like you really have to go out of your way now because all of the things that that forced all these interactions, like it, it was survival force, those interactions, it was work, it was neighborhoods, it was all these things forced it.

41:50

But now all those are forcing functions are gone.

And so like, if we don't purposefully go out and, and manufacture these opportunities, you know, like, I'm kind of curious how you think about this part of it.

Like for me, we go to a CrossFit gym and every time I bring that up, people like, oh God, CrossFit.

42:06

It's like anybody who has CrossFit.

I wasn't going to talk about CrossFit, but why I like it is because it's like a community.

I know, I know like maybe 30-40 fifty people there pretty well because we go through like extreme hardship together, you know, like workouts that leave you like a pancake on the floor in a puddle of sweat.

42:25

So like you're like, you did it too and it bonds you.

And it's not really about the workouts.

It's not really about the it's like about these people because like it's the only place I really have that.

You know, I had that with my TV crew and we would go on hunts and stuff.

And I'm always interested like how people build that.

42:42

I'm kind of curious if you have anything like that or or if you have any thoughts about how how do you intend to maintain relationships moving forward because the this is only going to increase, right?

It's only going to get more challenging.

Yeah, well, when it comes to the interpersonal loneliness, I mean, the tragic thing about it is no one is going to come solve it for you.

43:02

I mean, you could be a very well liked, well respected person.

I just experienced this.

I mean, I proved this out.

If I'm writing a book and someone reaches out and I go, you know, deadlines got to go talk later, then you know, they're going to take that cue and probably not text me again for a while, right?

43:21

And that might happen a few times.

And then when I decide that I'm at a place in life where, OK, now I really want to reconnect, you know, I'm getting fewer texts and fewer phone calls.

People aren't coming over, right?

It's like, oh shit, I actually have to put in the work now and invite a few of my friends over.

43:39

Hey, we're getting together on Tuesday.

It's, and I'm not a planner, so it makes it a little difficult for me.

I I'm just like have a very strong aversion to clocks and calendars.

So I'm a great example of what you just described.

Even with you the other day.

Hey, man, we really need to catch up to Sunday work.

And I'm like, yeah, perfect. 11 AMI actually put it on my calendar on my phone in that moment.

43:57

Then I was scrolling my calendar on that day and was like oh I'm on a plane at that time.

Then you were like, hey, when I get back from Arizona, I was like, OK, that sounds dicey.

Let's see if it.

Happens exactly, exactly.

So I mean it and then we're kind of on the surface level here, right.

It's like the the tactical kind of strategic element of putting yourself where there are other people you enjoy and and creating, you know, activities or space for that, which is funny to think like, hey, do you want to go on a hike?

44:25

It's like, I don't know, a couple 100 years ago you would have had to be going on a hike together or you weren't going to eat, you know, maybe more than a couple 100, but you get the idea.

But what, what I'm more interested in is what are the things within me that are blocking me from real intimacy with people, right?

44:44

Because being, being around people, having company is different from being together.

You know what you described it at CrossFit, Jim, I'm sure you guys aren't having deep philosophical conversations, but you're putting yourself in a challenging situation and you're all overcoming that together, right?

45:01

Which?

Is and there's an exposure because every one of them, I'm a little scared that I'm going to fail or that I'm not going to be, I'm not going to show up well.

And so there's a vulnerability that everybody's also feeling.

And so there's it while we're not having necessarily those deep conversations, in fact, those are missing.

45:18

And that's a little something I feel a little bit of pain about honestly.

But but because we do have this sense of vulnerability and embarrassment and potential for shame or glory, like all that, you know?

Yeah, it does.

It does help, Yeah.

45:35

Totally.

I mean, the principle of unity is earth moving, earth shattering.

I mean, when people get together with a shared purpose, we're unstoppable.

And I think that's one of the reasons that the institution's that govern this realm fight really hard to create division, because they know that unity is such a force of nature.

45:57

And they don't want that.

Because if you have unity amongst the people, you know, the people outnumber you and your, your reign of power is probably not going to last long, right?

But what, what I've discovered about myself is just in order for me to have trusting, deep reciprocal relationships with people, I've got to get in and root out what is in the way of that.

46:22

And for me, that's been fear, insecurity, jealousy, traumas, you know, just mental health issues, all of that, right?

Because I can be around a lot of people, even people that I like or I'd like to get to know, But there's something in me preventing me from going deeper or cultivating those relationships.

46:43

Because it feels on the surface so much safer to just kind of recede into myself and the safety of the relationship with my wife and just kind of shut people out.

There's an inherent vulnerability and also some exertion of will that's necessary for me to actually put myself out there and get to know people on a deeper level in my life.

47:03

I mean, it's, it's funny because I just wrote this, you know, book about this particular issue.

I don't know that this sense of separation that I've been really exploring for so long in in my life, I don't know that it will ever fully go away.

Of course.

47:19

You know, because it's like what I did in in my book, and I don't mean to keep like buy my book, buy my book, but please buy my book is, you know, I went all the way back.

I went all the way back to my birth, you know, and circumcision was part of that, you know, which I I believe.

47:35

By the way, that part of the book is awesome.

I love that you did that.

I mean, I learned that.

I learned about that from you.

Yeah, but I mean, you going into your whole birth like, like you did a really, you know, because there's this sense of like, well, how do you make a Luke story?

47:50

You're like, well, here's the recipe.

It's like, here's my whole life.

Like here's how you cook up a Luke story, you know, and it starts in the womb.

And I like that you went all the way back because I think a lot of people fail to do that.

They go back to the first bad memory or they go back to some formative moment.

48:07

But it's like, no, no, no, it goes all the way.

Goes all the way.

We'll just put it simply like this, OK?

And I, you know, there's no fault of my parents at all, right?

They obviously did the best they could and we're just following directives of the medical system, you know, as flawed as it is, they didn't know any other way, right?

48:25

Like, there wasn't a lot of like, home birth.

And this kind of thing was not very prevalent in 1970, right?

So, you know, I'm born and then there was a, you know, risk of infection.

So I was put in an incubator for about a week, and I wasn't breastfed and no one could touch me, right?

48:42

I mean, if you just look at anthropology, you know, that's not good for primates, right?

There's going to be developmental problems, specifically in the way they're able to relate to humans throughout their life.

And then you add the sexual violence of circumcision, and that's a major trauma where there is no consent possible.

49:03

And of course, the conscious mind doesn't remember that.

But does a baby feel safe if it's just been assaulted and put down the hall in a cold room in a glass box?

It's like hello.

Had part of its body forcibly cut off.

Yeah.

So, you know, and again, it's it, this isn't like a victim thing.

49:19

It's just, it's an objective analysis.

You know, why do I feel this kind of opaque glass barrier between me and other people, even people that I would like to get closer to and, and why is there so much kind of effort necessary to push myself into that?

49:37

And then in my case, add some sexual trauma when I'm six years old being molested.

I mean, that just completely catapulted me into the abyss of aloneness, right?

Because I didn't have support.

I didn't know how to ask for support.

And so I just held that shame and confusion and pain.

49:56

And that of course, LED into, well, not of course, but for many of us.

I mean, pretty much every hardcore addict I've ever known experienced some type of abuse when they were a kid.

And addiction in and of itself is also extremely isolating, right?

So you have these kind of seed wounds that set the stage for addiction.

50:15

The addiction is actually the solution to the original wound.

Unfortunately, the side effects of addiction is that it pushes you further and further into isolation, and further it creates.

A lot of opportunities for new wounds to form.

Exactly.

To harm other people and to be harmed by other people through your own desperation and lack of discernment, right.

50:34

And just putting yourself in dangerous situations in order to keep your, your game going.

So, you know, I'm looking at my, my own life and through my lens, it's like, OK, wow.

There were these really meaningful touch points where I took on this feeling of separation.

50:50

I did whatever I could to alleviate that feeling.

And what I was really trying to get to, although I didn't know it specifically in the in the realm of addiction, is I was trying to connect to God.

You know, I was, I was seeking to feel connected to source, to have a place in the universe where I felt like I belonged.

51:09

And for a long time, for me, as I say in the book, home was wherever I was high, you know, if I was high when it was, in the years where it was still doing its job, the anaesthesia, I felt fine, you know, being alone, right?

Can I ask you a question about that?

51:25

I think, OK, I had a therapist one time say to me and goes, Daniel, how did you not become a drug addict?

I don't understand.

And I was like, oh, I just, I kind of did.

I just only, I had a rule that I would only do plant medicines and that saved my ass because I would have applied the same level of vigor to harder substances, except I just had, I made a rule went out for myself somehow when I was young.

51:49

And so, but I remember the first time that I got high on cannabis, I was a teenager and 13 or so.

And I remember the moment it kicked in because I had tried to smoke it a couple times and it was like that thing where you don't really feel it, but you pretend you do for your friends or whatever and all that.

52:06

And but the first time I felt it, not only was it like an incredible like positive sensation, which I was like, oh, I don't, I don't really have any positive sensations.

So it's like the first time I felt good that I could remember, but it restored an innocent, childlike sense of wonder.

52:23

I remember this sense of like, everything's magical.

And for me, the world had become so, like, threatening and dark and shadowy, and suddenly I think I was feeling like what a kid in a healthy environment, a healthy kid in a healthy environment, would feel like.

52:41

Yeah, the world is full of possibility and wonder.

And I'm wondering baseline.

Yeah.

So like, in addition to did you did, did you go through anything like that was like in addition to just that numbing the pain because because whenever you hear about the people using, you know, you hear that narrative about people trying to escape the pain.

52:57

But I don't usually hear people talk about the thing I was always chasing more than getting out of pain was wanting to feel like life had something in it that was worth, that was exciting somehow, that there was some wonder to still be had.

53:13

Like it.

It was like an antidote to disillusionment.

Yeah, well said.

I mean, I think addiction is 2 things.

It's one avoiding pain and seeking pleasure, right?

53:29

So it's like, yeah, I mean, you just brought me back to my early experiences of, of smoking cannabis, you know, which at that time we called pot, and it was absolutely transcendent.

You know, I felt connected to all there is.

I mean, I remember just laying in a field and listening to Led Zeppelin, you know, and just, I'm looking up at the trees and the sun.

53:49

I mean, the kind of feeling I have now without needing cannabis, right?

It's like that's just actually how we're supposed to feel unless we're under direct threat or something, right?

It's like a sense of wonder, yeah.

Yeah, when we're at rest, we should be just looking at the stars and just contemplating our existence and the nature of reality.

54:08

And so, you know, I, I, I'm always careful to not demonize drugs of any kind because they really saved my life.

Specifically cannabis.

I mean, I truly don't think I would have survived my childhood without it.

It was like my, my closest companion, I think.

54:24

And it was, it was the best possible medicine available, to be honest.

I mean, what were they going to do?

Give me Ritalin or antidepressants or something?

I was like, you know, it was the safest choice.

Now, unfortunately, it escalated into a lot of other harder drugs, which, you know, you could say we're plant medicines, cocaine, heroin.

54:40

I mean, they're plant derived derived.

I mean, probably not get the same effect from chewing on a poppy, but you know, they, they do have their, their value in certain contexts, right?

But I think, you know, what I was really looking for beyond just trying to numb the pain of a confused and, you know, traumatic childhood was I, I wanted to feel whole.

55:04

I wanted to feel at home.

I wanted to feel connected.

And that was the only way I knew how to do it.

And I think for, you know, I know I know a bit about your childhood and you had a pretty rough time like I did.

I mean, many people have it rougher, some not as rough.

55:19

It's all subjective, right?

Every, every man's burden is the heaviest, as Bob Marley said.

So it's definitely clear to me that certain people have a propensity toward addiction.

It's, it's like nature and nurture, you know, I mean, I have 1/2 brother who grew up with the same verbally abusive, tyrannical dad and you can't get him to drink more than one beer.

55:43

I mean, maybe not even finish a beer, you know, doesn't like the feeling that happens when he smokes weed.

Just is not interested in being high at all ever.

And also hasn't done a tremendous amount of work to heal his childhood.

I mean he, you know.

Amazing, right?

So he's.

Gotten into meditation.

55:58

I mean, he's found his ways, a happy, successful guy.

He's just not someone who's geared toward working on himself and healing and just going deep like that, you know, But he's, he has high integrity, he's honest, he's loving, he's kind and he's a beautiful man and has zero interest in numbing his pain or using any kind of mind altering substance to feel more connected.

56:22

He found his own way.

Take my other brother Cody, whom I think you've met at one point.

Cody had the same dad as the three of us and he went the route that I did and he found great relief using drugs and thankfully eventually got sober.

And it's been sober for a long time.

But I know from the minute any drug or alcohol hit my system, it was on.

56:43

There was no stopping it.

There was no like long period of escalation and kind of experimentation.

It was like, oh, this is what this feels like.

I'm doing this everyday all day.

Alcohol took me a little while to, you know, use it on a daily basis.

56:59

But the very first time I drank alcohol, I got alcohol poisoning and passed out flat on my face, you know, and that was, that was, that was, and I was 8-9 years old and that was, that was how I drank every single time.

I've never ever had one sip of alcohol and not ended up shitfaced shitfaced drunk in a blackout.

57:18

Never was.

Serious.

Really.

Never, never.

I was like, you could say I was born an alcoholic.

I don't know, maybe if I hadn't experienced trauma as a kid, I might have had, you know, some degree of moderation, you know, available.

57:33

But I just, I wouldn't know because I never did.

I only know it the way that I know it.

And that was like, OK, it's like turning on a switch.

The switch is on or off.

And I just experienced this with, with nicotine recently.

You know, I was like, I think I told you a bit over text, you know, I've been addicted to nicotine for 40 years.

57:51

I thought, you know what?

Do I really need this?

You can't use the excuse of writing a book.

Can I just say in your defense right now, like the the amount of nicotine's a wonder drug supplement thing that I'm seeing where it's like, I know because that was one of my first addictions to like when I was a teenager living on the street, every cigarette felt like a little warm fire that I could be around.

58:13

That felt like home because I had no home to go to.

And eventually I felt like a slave constantly to this thing.

And it's come back into my life at different times, you know, like, I've been off it for many years now.

But watching people promoted, I'm like, oh, you guys, you know, I know what you're doing.

58:33

Like, yeah, it would be great to be in a business where you have an addictive product.

I'm sure that's great.

But like, it's being promoted as a supplement that for your health now, which I think is a yeah, they're really downplaying the addictive qualities.

But sorry.

Carry on.

Yeah, I mean, and I've been sharing about that publicly after having the experience.

58:49

I, I recently had, you know, I finished my book and I, I just don't like the feeling of being dependent on something outside of myself to feel like myself, right?

Like, I just, there's an incongruent energy to that that just feels disempowering to me.

So I was going to Costa Rica to take a little break after turning my book in and I thought what a what a perfect place.

59:10

I'll be in the sun, I'll be grounding by the ocean.

I'll just be with my wife.

It'll be super chill.

So I get there and I go cold Turkey off nicotine and can.

You describe the method by which you were administrating this nicotine for the people who may.

Not yeah.

So I, you know, I smoke cigarettes forever.

I started smoking when I was 15 or 16, back in the 80s.

59:28

And a few years into my sobriety, I quit smoking cigarettes.

And, and interestingly enough, it was really easy.

I just made a decision.

One day I was like, poof, gone.

I surrender.

I gave it to God and it happened in the same way that drugs and alcohol had happened for me in 1997.

I was like epic, done, move on, wasn't irritable, didn't, didn't freak out.

59:47

It was really like some kind of divine intervention.

I mean, it was it was wild.

And then, you know, over the the years following that I had different periods in which I started smoking cigars and using other forms of nicotine.

But I would never go back to cigarettes, right?

1:00:03

Because it's just a foul habit and.

A few years ago, in kind of to what you're speaking to in the biohacking scene, people started using like oral nicotine pouches and stuff for its nootropic effect, which is very real.

I mean, it's incredible for drive and motivation and focus because of the way it interacts with your brain.

1:00:22

So I thought, wow, I mean, I'm not going to be smoking, but like, I need to focus.

I'll get on the nicotine, right.

Anyway, Fast forward to a couple years ago.

I was in a plant medicine ceremony and one of the facilitators gave me something called Ambiel, which is a, I'm sure you're familiar.

1:00:40

It's a heavily concentrated tobacco paste.

So it's, you know, it's Amazonian plant medicine.

It's really, really strong.

I mean, it doesn't say how.

Many have some ash in it or something right?

Something alkali that because you.

Exactly.

So I start chewing that and at the same time I discover mambe which is coca leaf.

1:00:57

I just ground up powdered coca leaf.

Amazing alkaline catalyst in it though.

So yeah, I would, I would put a little baking soda in the in the in the leaf, you know, to activate it and it kind of numbs your cheek.

It doesn't get you high by any stretch, but it's it's mildly stimulating.

Wait a hell.

OK, hang on.

1:01:13

Do you do you find it's like mind altering?

OK.

Yeah, yeah.

OK, OK, I've never.

Heard about COCA?

Yeah.

Oh, man, I can get myself if I start chewing coca at like 2:00 PM.

Come 8:00 PM, I'm high.

1:01:32

I mean, I'm not high like, like, you know, Wall Street guys sniffing coke off strippers.

But I'm, yeah, I'm definitely.

OK, maybe I was high and I didn't even know it.

Really.

You don't think of it as getting you high.

I mean I've coca leaf to me is less stimulating than coffee.

1:01:48

Like if I drop the OK, I don't drink OK.

I drink caffeine a couple times a year at most when I have it.

I every time I go, they just sell this everywhere.

Like I get so high from it.

Yeah, right.

And so coca similarly, because especially 'cause I don't have it very much, you know, I, I can't have it like I can't have it at the house.

1:02:09

I'm just too, I'd be too deep of an addict.

So I rely on proximity.

And when I visit friends, particularly all my friends in ayahuasca and on the red road and all that, they always have these two substances you're talking about the Ambil and the Mumbai.

And so I'll have a little, you know, where they'll do hop a which is the snuff, tobacco snuff up the nose, right?

1:02:29

Like the blow it up your nose.

Like those get me.

Both of those get me ripping.

I'm amazed you say that.

I mean, I guess maybe because I I can't use stimulants regularly, I'm too sensitive to them.

But I can tell you they both get me real high.

Yeah, well, I think what happened for me was that that started right when I was in the depths of writing my book, and it was incredible.

1:02:50

I mean, I would sit here for hours and hours just grinding away.

Like the world would completely tune out.

And I mean, I'm just, I'm literally in here for 1012 hours a day, just non-stop take breaks, jump on the trampoline, jump in the ice bath, whatever, take a walk.

You know, I don't want to be sitting all day.

1:03:05

But in terms of like my mental acuity and focus off the charts.

So it's very easy to justify because I'm using it for, you know, an intended purpose.

And for for listeners like never.

I don't want to give the wrong impression.

If you don't drink Red Bull and you just drank a Red Bull, you know that feeling is what I get from Mumbai.

1:03:24

I could drive a car no problem but I'm not like my normal self.

I'm myself quite stimulated and and move in a little faster and like you said, hyper focused.

Yeah, yeah.

So anyway, I, you know, I go to Costa Rica and decide it's just time to put those aside.

1:03:40

I'm not using them with the kind of reverence that I think they deserve.

They're beautiful medicines, you know, and I, I really honor the medicines that God put here for us to use.

But it got to a point where they were using me, you know?

It's just like, yeah.

And also draining my bank account in a pretty significant way, you know?

1:03:59

Cheap to get here.

Yeah, so it was such an interesting experiment because I felt like I was really equipped to handle it and in a great environment to handle it.

And it was a disaster.

I was, I got incredibly lethargic.

1:04:15

I couldn't put 2 words together.

I mean, my brain just completely shut down.

It's incredibly irritable.

I was just a total pill, like just, you know, all but ruined the trip for my wife.

And we have a very low friction harmonious relationship.

1:04:33

And it, I mean, she was fine.

She wasn't creating friction, but I was, you know, just just just just nasty and irritable.

I was just so touchy, you know, and there were, there were a few work things that I needed to get done and I was just completely incapable of doing e-mail or anything.

1:04:49

It was so hardcore.

And so I like to share that because, I mean, your average person in in the states isn't going to find cocoa leaf because it's, you know, not widely available.

But any kind of really strong tobacco product, if you're using it on a regular basis, especially for 40 years and you just go, I'm just going to stop mind over matter.

1:05:09

It's a formidable opponent.

Let's just say that.

So you know it's been a.

Process one of the most hardcore you know and Dale Pendell in his books he he has this great thing he talks about with tobacco in particular he says talks about how there's like no way to use it that isn't disgusting He's like, you know you smoke it it's just eventually your fingers are yellow you stink your breath's bad, your teeth are yellow like it's gross.

1:05:34

You smoke cigars, like you know how that is just the whole room.

It's foul.

It's just like you chew it.

OK, Now you're carrying around a jar, you're spitting into it.

You're rubbing it on your gums.

OK, Now you're getting like sores in your mouth.

And there's just like tobacco's funny because there's no civil way to really, you know, even those little pouches, like every urinal you go to is just filled with all these pouches of all the guys are them out, you know, and, and, but I think the the worst part is like when you wake up in the morning, because you know, like you wake up in the morning, you're like, OK, I'm going to like not I'm going to go till noon today.

1:06:09

I'm not going to, I don't, this doesn't control me.

And then like going through that, it's like, and eventually what you realize is he's spending like the whole day, like think wrestling with it all day.

Like, like, OK, I'm OK, I'm going to have my first one.

And then it's like 20 minutes later, Oh, I kind of want another one.

And then however you use it, it's just like, like you said, it's using you.

1:06:25

It's like, it's like constantly on your mind.

Even if it's your mind telling you you're not going to do it, you're still obsessing on it.

Totally very difficult to get your own mind back from.

Yeah, I mean, it's energy depleting whether you're using it or not.

Yeah, ultimately, right.

1:06:42

So, so yeah, that's just, you know, it's, it's a reminder to me.

I took that as a lesson that the addictive tendencies that that used to, you know, really destroy my life are just dormant, right?

They're not gone.

1:06:58

And I don't have any plans to pick up alcohol or any of the other drugs with which I had problems before.

But it's just like, yeah, you're, you still have the same kind of physiological makeup and mental makeup that makes certain things off limits for you.

1:07:14

And so now, almost 30 years into my sobriety, I kind of think of it as as a series of circles, right?

And those circles are each of my relationships, which include people and habits and substances.

And there are certain things that are just on in the outer edge of that circle, and they are banished for life.

1:07:33

Because they're just you lost your privileges.

Yeah, just, you know, yeah, I used up my E tickets and that the party's over with that one, you know.

So coca leaf for me would be one of those.

I mean, it's unfortunate because I really enjoy, I really like it.

I like the taste, I like the feeling.

It's really nice.

But if I have a kilo of it sitting in the cabinet here, I'm going to be on it all day, every day, no breaks.

1:07:54

Yeah, till it's.

Gone all day.

Till it's gone.

I in fact, like I've had times where I go over to someone's house and they're like, oh, I have some coca and they'll show me and they'll be like this much in the jar and I'm like, I don't even want it It's not worth it if we're not going to go all night.

I can't even don't even know I'll eat all of that.

1:08:10

Don't even show me that.

You know yeah, it's funny.

My, my wife's always laughing at me because she drinks coffee and she has like such a amazing balanced relationship with it, which I don't.

If I like, if I, I have such an addictive personality, if I go get a decaf, I will then want another decaf the next day and I can get high on a decaf.

1:08:32

That's how like tall intolerant I am to caffeine.

I'll get hooked on the decaf and then the next day I wake up, all I'm thinking about is when am I going to get my decaf?

And then like, well, what if I have two decafs, like, and I'll just start and then I'm drinking that everyday and people are laughing at me because it's like 15 milligrams and it's like, that's all I need.

1:08:49

Dude.

I puts me in the zone.

But yeah, like I've gotten down to like cacao because I just, I one by one, it's like can't have that anymore, Can't have that anymore.

And I'm getting down to where it's like prayer and meditation.

That's like all I get to have, you know, Like, but this is like a pruning process kind of, or like it's that shadow work thing.

1:09:11

It is, I've been thinking of it as sanctification.

It's like where what are all these things inside me, these dark places?

And like, how do I get light into those places?

And what are the things that I'm using to avoid having to look in those places, you know, And a lot of these substances, you know, I had, I always joke around, I call these drugs daily drivers, the ones that, you know, tobacco, coffee, cacao, coca.

1:09:38

These are like the drugs you can take and still go to work, you know, versus like hard drugs or whatever, the daily driver drugs, the ones that are like socially acceptable, but they because they're socially acceptable, they're a great, great way to avoid a whole bunch of personal confrontation.

1:09:54

I think they can be.

Absolutely.

I mean that I think that's the tricky thing about any kind of addiction that doesn't immediately destroy your life.

I mean, I was, I don't know, I've kind of struggled with this.

And I think in my book, you know, I asked myself, was IA sex sex addict?

1:10:10

Probably.

I mean, you know, my definition of addiction is doing something that is harmful and you know it and you can't stop.

So I would say based on my own definition, yeah.

But when you're getting into sexuality, overeating, gambling, when it's something that's part of what a normal human does as just part of their life, it's much easier to justify.

1:10:33

And the lighter weight substances that we've been talking about are so socially acceptable to the point that they're almost expected if if someone offers.

Say this all the time, but it's like you get coffee comes in your hotel room.

Every hotel room.

There's a drug that we use so ubiquitously in our country that it's in every hotel room prepared for you to use.

1:10:54

Like that's, that's like when you read the book Dune and you're like, oh, wow, they're really obsessed with this stuff.

The spice.

It's like, yeah, hello.

It's an allegory.

Like go to your hotel room.

You got coffee in there.

Like, that's weird, right?

It's really strange.

I think it's the number one plant medicine in the world, if I'm not mistaken.

1:11:12

Maybe tea might surpass it.

But I'd I'd like to report one thing about which I'm really grateful is I have a total take it or leave it relationship with coffee.

And I'm like so glad because I love coffee.

I just know if I'm well rested and already feel energized, it's off the table.

1:11:30

But if I'm depleted and I drink coffee, I really enjoy it and then I'm at baseline and I feel really normal and not anxious, provided it's like a really good clean coffee, you know, not full of mycotoxins and pesticides and stuff.

But yeah, I'm like, oh, thank God I have one thing left, you know?

Yeah.

1:11:46

That many people become addicted to.

I mean, I've heard people say they get headaches when they quit coffee.

I'm like, what?

I've never had that.

And so I'm, I'm going to make sure that I stay disciplined on that so I can continue to enjoy it as needed.

Yeah, I do think it's nice to have things that you can enjoy.

You know, it's just about like, what kind of.

1:12:03

Well, yeah, like what's the background trauma?

I want to ask you about the sexual trauma component because I think that something that's happened for me in the last few years is I was really lucky to not be sexually abused as a child.

I was verbally abused.

1:12:19

I was psychologically abused.

I was, you know, kicked out of the house, on the street, all these kind of things.

But I wasn't really.

I got very lucky.

I had a physical level.

But in recent years, I can't get this thought out of my head everywhere I go.

1:12:36

It's like, who can you start?

When you start to really talk to people about sexual abuse and you realize how ubiquitous ubiquitous it is, it makes you realize that like there's all these sexual abusers everywhere.

And that means like everyday I'm interacting with them and they're posing as normal people because some of them are listening right now.

1:12:56

I'm sure maybe they don't even admit it to themselves that they do this.

I don't know, but I'm 1, you know, with, with the Epstein stuff coming out and you realize, like, Oh, it's not just that it's happening.

It's like institutionalized.

1:13:12

There's massive underground networks for it.

It's actually maybe like one of the most significant problems on earth.

And it's a found, it's a foundational trauma upon which a lifetime of not only more trauma and abuse and addiction, but also then the spreading of it like a disease, like it spreads, like people who get abused often become abusers and all that.

1:13:37

I'm curious, just, I don't know, I, I don't have a specific question.

I just want to kind of hand it back to you as far as like what impact that had and then how you see it playing out in culture generally.

Yeah.

I mean, I can say that it is.

1:13:53

I mean, it's a devastating experience for a person to have.

You know, it happened for me when I was, I say for me, because it led to a lot of good in a strange kind of way.

But I was six years old and there was just a complete fragmentation of self, which is tragic, but the real tragedy there is because of that particular age, there was a fragmentation of self before there was a self.

1:14:26

And in my book, I refer to that as a loss of inner sense in one, one of my first ayahuasca experiences.

I mean, I had gone to therapy about this.

And I mean, I, it's not something I avoided looking at.

I mean, I, I could talk about it without a real emotional charge.

1:14:42

I mean, I was able to really do a lot of deep healing over the years, 20 years of healing that were inclusive of that kind of, you know, pinnacle and I, I was really looking into that and I and I was just grieving my innocence, right, that a six year old kid shouldn't even know what sexuality is, or at least not, you know, with that kind of detail, right?

1:15:08

Birds, you're in birds and bees territory there, right?

It's like, where did why is mommy's tummy big?

You know, you're like stories.

I mean, it truly was innocent.

I have no idea, you know, what this world is about what I'm doing here.

I'm a little kid.

1:15:23

And so the, the most difficult thing about that is I didn't have an identity yet, right?

So it's like identity is fractured before it's even formed.

And what was the case for me was extreme isolation in that shame, right?

1:15:43

Because I knew it was wrong and I felt dirty and flawed because of it.

Yet at the same time, there was a sense of guilt because I had, to a degree, voluntarily participated, albeit I was groomed and coerced and manipulated into it.

1:16:02

How do you know it was wrong?

I think just because the way I felt and also the way the grooming process worked for me is small.

It was a babysitter who was a 15 year old boy and small rules were allowed to be broken as long as I didn't tell my mom, right?

1:16:22

So there was like this escalation of secrets.

And so the entire relationship there was based in secrecy and I knew that I was doing things that were against the rules in my home, right?

Like watching kind of adult themed TV shows, looking at pornographic magazines and so on.

1:16:40

So it was all categorized in a way to me as I did something wrong.

You know, I, I know that I'm not supposed to steal or lie.

I mean, there's just basic ethics and morals that your parents hopefully instill in you.

So it was all compartmentalized as something I did, which is where that guilt came from.

1:17:01

And I think what the shame really did was push me into such isolation within myself because I'm holding such a massive secret.

I mean, I just knew by the way it felt, it was such an overwhelming experience and so confusing to me that there was no way that I could have communicated it.

1:17:21

And to communicate it to my caregivers would have been the admission of guilt because I had broken all of these rules, right?

And so that was really such a massive sense of separation I had with other kids.

1:17:37

And because I didn't know what to do with all of that inner conflict, I started, I was always a really sweet, kind hearted kid.

And I mean, pretty much from that day I became violent, started, you know, getting in fights with kids and hitting kids over the head with the boards and the, you know, EMTs come and they get stitches.

1:17:57

I mean, I was just, I was just really messed up and started really getting into pornography.

I'm talking six years old, you know, lighting fires, having the fire department show up.

I let my grandmother's pine tree on fire, playing with fires and cigarettes and porno magazines.

I mean, just like, really lost.

1:18:13

Did you have any?

Were there any adults around that thought you were a bad kid, the parents of parents of the other kids or anything?

Like when this stuff's happening, like I'm thinking about right now, all the bad kids that I've known and it's like, yeah, what was happening to.

1:18:30

These kids, you know, yeah, I think because of the socioeconomics and just the culture in which I lived, there wasn't a lot of supervision going on.

So it wasn't, you know what I mean?

It's like it was a really poor neighborhood and there's probably all kinds of stuff going on like that.

1:18:48

But certainly as I got into grade school and and middle school and whatnot, yeah.

I mean, I was just constantly suspended from school, put in special Ed classes.

But I didn't really have a lot of friends because I couldn't relate to kids.

And so I didn't even have an opportunity to be labeled kind of that, you know, don't hang around that kid down the street because I wasn't hanging around with many people anyway, you know, But I, I think really for me, it was just the internal conflict and having nowhere to take that was what compounded it.

1:19:23

You know, if I look back in a perfect world, in a perfect world, I would have had a male present.

You know, my dad and mom got divorced when I was quite young.

So by the time that happened, I live with my mother and my grandmother.

And my dad was a, he was a tough customer.

If my dad had been in the home, I think it's highly unlikely that a predator would have seen me as prey.

1:19:45

And so, you know, looking back, if I put myself in the position of a predator, I see, you know, a kid who's kind of all alone and doesn't have a protector in the house.

You know, and even maybe because I had experienced trauma at my birth, you know, there was a certain kind of, I don't know, vulnerability.

1:20:02

Yeah.

A vulnerability susceptibility that a predator could pick up on intuitively.

So the, the crazy thing going into the, you know, the second-half of your question is.

And I write about this in my book, which I was reluctant to do because it was so hard to write.

1:20:18

But what ended up happening was if I can kind of truncate the story and speaking to how this becomes generational and really spreads like a virus in a way.

So when I was being molested, which I don't know how many times it happened, but I definitely know what happened once because I have some pretty concrete memories about one particular event.

1:20:39

I didn't ever share that with any of the adults around me.

I didn't have the capacity to do that.

If I had, I would have probably gotten some really good support.

But I just, you know, for whatever reason, was unable to share what had happened.

So I go through my life, become an addict.

I eventually get sober many years later.

1:20:56

A couple decades later, my grandmother was raped.

That's the grandmother that I lived with when this was happening.

And it's a long and really tragic story, but essentially what happened was years later when DNA evidence became prevalent and reliable, they ran DNA and found the perpetrator that had raped her was my childhood friend Miguel.

1:22:37

Then I remembered when I was being abused, that babysitter told me he was also abusing Miguel as a way to normalize his behavior.

So me and this other boy are.

Yeah.

So me and this other boy are being molested.

1:22:54

We both become drug addicts and get involved in crime and all kinds of things.

He took it a little.

But you you 2 never discuss it with each other, of course.

No.

And so, you know, I think we have different ways of dealing with pain.

1:23:10

I was wired to turn my pain inward in a more self-destructive way.

And he was someone that was wired to externalize it in in violence and sexual violence.

He had a long rap sheet, you know, of, of other sexual crimes and crystal meth arrests and things like this and ended up getting convicted and going to prison.

1:23:29

So it's a perfect example of where sexual abuse, you know, kind of is the the fertile ground that's created for more of that abuse.

And it is definitely cyclical.

And even though I didn't go on to abuse people in the way that the other kid did, I mean, I essentially did the same thing to myself unknowingly, you know, I'm just dishonouring, disrespecting myself, putting myself in dangerous situations and acting selfishly hurt a lot of other people.

1:23:57

I mean, not through violence or anything of that nature, but, you know, I'm sure there are a lot of people that I left in my wake as an addict that, you know, didn't enjoy their time with me, put it that way.

And it's just, you know, it's just a really tragic thing.

Yet at the same time, I mean, I've looked at it from so many angles.

1:24:14

And one of the ways that I explored that was just kind of looking at the deeper meaning behind that and trying to trying to unravel the victim perspective in that without condoning the aggressor, right?

1:24:32

Because it's when you get into forgiveness, it gets tricky.

And I've gone like really deep into forgiveness in my life.

And you can't forgive someone.

It's difficult to forgive someone who hasn't repented, right?

For one thing, it's also difficult to forgive someone if you have not acknowledged your own part in terms of whatever responsibility you had or whatever role you played in setting yourself up for predation.

1:24:59

So I can look at any experience in my life where someone has wronged me, and 99.999% of the time I've had some selfish motive or made some kind of decision or lack discernment that put me in the position to be harmed.

1:25:15

And I've been able to forgive those people because I can see like, well, yeah, I kind of got myself into that situation, knowingly or not, right?

But with this one, because I was so young, I didn't really have any responsibility to claim other than after the fact.

I withheld it and went into lies and secrecy and didn't tell anyone about it, right.

1:25:34

But leading up to that.

I mean, you're 6.

I'm 6 right?

I mean, maybe you could say, well, I, you know, I started breaking the rules with him and keeping secrets, right?

So a little, a little bit, but that was standing.

I have been able to forgive that man to the capacity that I have.

1:25:53

I'm sure I could forgive more and I'd probably be more free.

And one of the things that's helped me with that forgiveness is just, I mean, it's going to be difficult.

And I don't mean to victim shame anyone.

And this could sound weird if you haven't contextualized a similar experience in your own life, but I've looked at it from a karmic lens in that I don't believe anything that happens in this world is random.

1:26:17

And it's possible, I don't know, but it's possible in a sense that I had a karmic debt to pay in some way.

And whether or not that's true, I can't be certain.

But if I look at balancing the scales, I find that there's a bit of relief in that knowing if that was a debt, it's been paid and that I won't and that I won't have to experience that again.

1:26:47

And I also have the benefit of not perpetuating those type of crime or crimes upon other people.

So there was like this some sort of strange karmic, energetic bond between me as a little boy and that 15 year old kid that can only be severed through forgiveness.

1:27:05

And also taking a very meta view at the whole experience and depersonalizing it and just looking at the nature of good and evil and how these opposing forces play out in our lifetime.

And so that was an experience where I happened to converge with someone who was so disconnected from love that they were capable of acts of evil.

1:27:27

Underneath that person who was committing the evil act was someone who was probably once an innocent boy like me and had his own karma that he was working out.

Right.

Yeah.

So it's like, man, you can really start start teasing this apart and looking at it from every angle, which is, you know, I don't recommend that everyone does that and dwells on it their whole life.

1:27:48

But for me, there's like, there's so much value in that experience because it impacted me so dramatically that I just know there's something more to learn from it other than just like, oh, I need to cry about it and kind of work through the trauma and heal and move on.

1:28:04

And I don't want to be talking about or thinking about it for the rest of my life.

But anytime I go back to it, I tend to see another angle.

Like, there's there's something more to mine in that that takes me closer to the actual truth.

You know that we live in a world where there's an infinite amount of love from God, but there are also vacuums where that love is absent.

1:28:29

And when that love is absent, people are capable of horrific acts of violence and abuse.

That's what's interesting about God's love is that it's the way that it appears to me to work is like it's freely available but never forced into you.

1:28:48

So if you want to create a space where it's not there, you get to do that.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

And and then you can use that as evidence for the lack of it and you can build whole, you know, empires of stories on top of that until you finally turn to it.

1:29:08

But I want to hear about this idea of forgiveness more because for multiple reasons, like 1 is that if there is like a karmic chain reaction, like you just said, then the first question that came into my mind as you were saying, that's like, well, how do you interrupt it then?

1:29:26

Because it's like a domino effect.

And then you said, well, forgiveness.

So that makes forgiveness seem pretty important for me.

Like in the spiritual path I'm on, you know, there's this idea of like, if you're on your way to worship, you're on your way to the altar and you realize you have something between you and somebody else first go get reconciled, then go to God, you know, And it's like, oh, that's, that's hard because I got like 150 of those things to deal with still, you know, some of them are a lot harder to deal with than others.

1:29:57

Like it's a lot easier sometimes to suck it up and go to my neighbor, but it's a lot harder.

Like when I talk to my mom, it's like, oh man, I got a lot, It's messy and it sometimes goes off the rails, you know, and that's really hard.

So part of it is like, because I genuinely want to like learn how to forgive as well.

1:30:17

And then I think another reason is because for everybody listening, because if it really is like a master key, because, you know, here we are like, you know, you've mentioned a couple times about sort of like the, the, the forces in the world that are perpetuating all of this and disempowering us essentially and kind of feeding on us through that.

1:30:42

That would mean that forgiveness would be like one of those things that they would not want us to really get good at, you know, because it's like 1.

One thing that I, I found very interesting about the cosmic struggle that we're in are the weapons that we, you know, as a hunter, for instance, and a shooter and all that.

1:30:58

Like I have weapons and when I think about those weapons and how they work, it's like so obvious.

But when I think about the weapons that I use spiritually, they're not intuitive.

Like it's love.

It's like, how is that a weapon like against darkness?

1:31:13

But it is, you know, and forgiveness is a weapon against darkness.

And in ways that you, you just counter intuitive.

Like there's that sense of like, oh, this person's being a jerk to me.

I need to meet them with equal or more force.

That's how they're going to learn not to do this to me.

1:31:29

And it's like, actually, that's just perpetuates it, right?

Doesn't work.

If I meet them with love and forgiveness, it's actually disarming to them and therefore it's like a weapon against not them, but the darkness that was aligned behind all of that, right?

So it's, but it's very counterintuitive.

1:31:45

So let's talk a little bit about forgiveness and like, how do we wield such a powerful tool?

And, and how do we even how, how much does it matter what the other person thinks or feels?

How much is it an internal process and how much is for them and how much is for us?

1:32:05

Yeah, I, I mean, I think on a high level it's an act of service for everyone involved.

But for me it's an act of self preservation.

I think the benefit, the benefits are far reaching.

I mean, out into the consciousness field, right?

1:32:20

It's like, wow, if there was less resentment and hostility, we'd have a much more enjoyable time here.

But I've always viewed it as freeing myself, not freeing the other person.

And I think one of the things people really struggle with with forgiveness is that they sense that they're somehow condoning or Co signing someone's behavior or thinking that it requires them to continue to be in a place where they can be harmed, right?

1:32:47

So it's like forgiveness and boundaries are like best friends.

I mean, they're almost one in the same for me.

I can forgive someone and also choose to cut them out of my life permanently, right?

Which would be the case in the hardest one that I had to forgive.

But for what?

What makes it easier for me is, I mean, you're a Bible guy, you know, light, light years ahead of where I am with these teachings, but forgive them for they know not what they do would be how I look at forgiveness in essence.

1:33:15

And so when I have a resentment towards someone despite the fact that there might be a legitimate hurt or grievance behind it, because the ego is such a shape shifting sort of entity, it loves to be right almost.

1:33:33

Almost kind of needs to be right.

Yeah, in order to even exist, right.

So I might look at someone's behavior or something that happened or a way in which I've been harmed, and rather than seeing that that person is just ask acting from limitation, I'm actually judging and resenting that person for being who and what they are.

1:33:55

When in reality, they can only do what they're doing based on their level of consciousness, right?

And based on their capacity for love and how much love they've received in their life.

So a I'm forgiving someone for my own benefit primarily.

1:34:14

BI might have a problem with someone's behavior, but I can do so without making them wrong for doing it.

You see what I mean?

It's like if they knew better, they would do better.

Every human being, no matter how terrible or evil they are at any given moment, is doing what they feel to be right.

1:34:34

It might be objectively wrong in a moral context to everyone else, but it's not wrong to them.

Otherwise they wouldn't be doing that.

It's like, you know, no evil dictator wakes up and goes, OK, what's the worst decisions I can make today?

They're, you know, they're waking up going, here's my plan for world domination or whatever is going through their mind, whatever's motivating them, right?

1:34:55

But everyone can only behave from their level of maturity, understanding, consciousness and so on.

So it's like, would I hold a grievance against a 5 year old who dropped his ice cream cone on my foot?

Might be annoying, but pretty easy to forgive because I looked down and got out of kids. 5 Of course he dropped his ice cream.

1:35:16

Get over it.

Right?

And I applied that same kind of rationale to the worst offenders that have ever been in my life or the world at large, right?

It's like they're literally doing the best they know how to do.

That said, it might not be good enough for me and I and I also might really hope that they received the justice that they deserve.

1:35:37

You know, like the, the childhood friend that ended up being convicted for raping my beloved grandmother.

I mean, I, I think, I, I think that his prison sentence should have been indefinite and maybe even worse.

You know, I don't know, I'm, I'm, I'm a bit, the death penalty is a bit debatable, but I think if you cross a certain line, you kind of lose your society privileges, you know, So I completely forgive that man sitting here today, yet at the same time have no desire to have any kind of relationship in the physical or metaphysical realm.

1:36:12

I want nothing to do with that entity, even if he's turned his life around and is, you know, a great guy and is, you know, repented and sought recovery or whatever he needed to do or served his time in prison.

In other words, like that relationship for me is over.

If I was to continue to resent him, I would be keeping that relationship alive voluntarily.

1:36:34

So the only way for me to truly be divorced from that person is to irrevocably and indiscriminately just flat out pardon them, right?

That's the hard part.

When you're holding resentment and anger, you're holding the attachment.

1:36:51

It's real hard.

Well, I see.

I want to feel connected to myself, to God, to the world.

I don't want to be in separation.

I've lived in separation for far too long.

And so if I'm resentful and I'm holding a grudge, and even if I'm just judging someone for being wrong, for being who they are, even if it is objectively wrong, that's just another brick in the wall of my separation.

1:37:13

Now, I don't want to be connected to that person I'm forgiving at all.

That's the whole point.

But I want to be connected to everyone else and not have a heart full of hate, because a heart full of hate is a heart that's closed.

And I want to live in a world where I can have my heart open and also have the wisdom and discernment to know when it's safe to open it or not.

1:37:35

As I went through the process of forgiveness with these two specifically, I mean, it's been decades of work on this, right?

It's not like, you know, the next day I was like, oh, it's cool.

They're doing the best they can.

We're on a podcast.

I can only go so deep.

That's why I wrote a book about it.

1:37:50

And it goes much deeper into this.

But where I ultimately arrived that was the most difficult was forgiving God.

OK, that we got to unpack that and.

See, it's like, I mean, this is the human dilemma, right?

How do we how do we reconcile that that we've been created by a loving God and that God allows evil to exist here and.

1:38:15

But but like, if you were OK, so sorry to break in on this, I'm going to.

But it's like if you knew this was temporary, if you knew like, hey, I put on the VR goggles.

It's an extremely immersive experience.

1:38:30

And at the end of the game, I take it back off and I'm in the real world.

Yeah.

Then I'm not so angry about the bumps and bruises that take place inside the game because they're just there for me to have contrasts to make the game exciting and for there to be growth opportunity and for me to have obstacles to overcome.

1:38:49

I mean, I had a pretty hard workout today that I purposefully did because that represents obstacles to make me stronger.

So I overcome those obstacles to stay strong.

So part of it, I think like right now we see this thing going on culturally, which goes all the way back to the book of Genesis.

1:39:06

It's so funny to me that people miss this.

I don't understand how, but because the original story is like, oh, if we can get the secret knowledge that comes from this reptile, we'll then we'll be immortal and we'll be like God.

And so now we have this thing that's going on.

It's like, oh, if we can get the secret knowledge, then we're going to figure out death and we're going to become immortal and we'll be like God.

1:39:26

The same story, right?

And the idea of being immortal in this realm, to me is not really that exciting, right?

Yeah.

Thank you.

I'm glad you just get that.

So.

So at some point, I'm like, excited to take off the goggles, you know?

1:39:43

But if you're terrified of ever taking the goggles off 'cause you think that means annihilation, yeah, then I can understand like this anger against God, 'cause it's like, why would you allow there to be hardship here?

But it's like if this is just a proving ground, a training ground, a simulation, a video game, a creation.

1:40:00

Then it's like, not hard to understand why you'd need contrast and hardship and even why your soul would need an enemy maybe.

Yeah, you know what I mean?

I mean, absolutely pass this back to you.

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, you just, you just put my worldview in in very simple, clear terms.

1:40:21

And this is what I've been wrestling with for a long time.

And I alluded to it earlier.

It's like, OK, I've had so many experiences in my life where this dualistic realm in which we live has proven to be false.

It's just, it's not actually really, it really is a simulation because when I go wherever I go, I'm still there, you know what I mean?

1:40:42

But none of this is and it seems real.

I mean, dreams would be an example of that.

I think the most prominent well, I don't think I know the most prominent examples of this for me have been with the 5MEOD MTI mean it's just like OK, what you know, I got this all wrong and and honestly the.

1:41:01

Specifically going as it the going out, the there or the coming back for you.

That makes that the most obvious.

I think it's the going out, yeah, just that instantaneous disillusion.

And you know, I call it in my book an Ede, an ego death experience, you know, and people throw that word around, but I don't know.

1:41:23

I mean, I've, I've taken a lot of different drugs without intention, with an intention.

I mean, I think there's very few plant medicines I haven't experienced.

Iboga would be maybe the only one I can think of that I've ever even, well, Salvia.

I'm sure there's a couple like more kind of obscure ones that I haven't.

1:41:40

But you know, you're heavy hitters.

But with the the Bufo toad, it's so cool that you used to go to the Sonoran Desert and actually, you know, harvest it yourself.

I think that's so cool.

We can talk about that another time.

But in those experiences, I mean, that's really where I was able to reconcile this duality and make peace with it.

1:41:59

And I'm so grateful for those experiences.

And like any kind of deep experience, it's so difficult to put into words.

But I remember in one particular journey, I don't know, it's like so many things that I've read in books for so many years, like the idea that God in its infinite presence has no polarity.

1:42:23

It's only one thing, right?

And it can't know itself because there's no contrast for it to know itself against.

And I had this vision of this like infinite tapestry of eternity and that when God creates things, including us and this reality, it's like threads of that tapestry start to come out so that the tapestry can then experience itself as all these is this infinite number of threads.

1:42:48

And I'm one of those threads.

And as that thread, I can go, you know, on a shooting spree at the school down the street if I want, you know, does that mean I'm not God?

It's like God once seeks to experience itself and it's experience in itself ad infinitum to, you know, this like endless spectrum from maximum pure love to complete void of love.

1:43:16

It you know, it's again, it's, it's really hard to put into words.

I'm sure you understand it to some degree in your own way and you just kind of alluded to that.

But it's like, OK, if God is everything and everything is God, then that means what I perceive to be evil and darkness and violence and famine, suffering, etcetera, is also God.

1:43:38

You know, that's the point where I was like, OK, I'm, I'm kind of at a wall here.

And you just got us past that wall, which is what if this world was never meant to be perfect?

And if the suffering serves a purpose, what is that purpose?

1:43:54

It's like, imagine you take a postgraduate student and put them in kindergarten.

Like, how much are they going to grow and evolve and expand who they are, right?

They're going to digress.

If anything, the very least they're going to be extremely bored and frustrated, right?

1:44:11

So I look at it kind of as whatever level my soul through incarnations has achieved was a perfect fit for this realm that we call Earth.

And I said, I'll go back down there because I know there's some great lessons down there.

1:44:30

One of those lessons could include being murdered in a war or being molested by a babysitter.

Are you sure?

Let's take a look at who your family's going to be.

I mean, we're talking, you know, incest, alcoholism, just complete mental illness, the whole thing on both sides.

1:44:47

You sure you want that couple right there?

You're like, yeah, but it's less than 100 Earth years.

It's going to go by so fast, you know?

Yeah.

Exactly, exactly.

So I, the way I'm looking at it right now and my views are constantly evolving, but as beautiful as the human experience is, I really get the idea that we're living in sort of a purgatorial experience here.

1:45:08

And if I can just surrender to that, you know, however however that looks, however, you know, different people would contextualize that differently.

I don't mean purgatorial as like a pretty.

Catholic.

Yeah, Or the Catholic meaning of it.

Yeah, not like stuck in the bardo or something like that, but it's like, OK, we're we're we're on ground level here, right?

1:45:28

And you, you just look at the primitive nature of humans.

It's like we're basically a bear or a Wolverine with a prefrontal cortex strapped to the front of our head.

You know what I mean?

It's like we're dangerous beings on this planet.

Look what we do to this planet.

1:45:44

Look what we do to one another.

I mean, it's, it's hard to just go.

It's the way God meant it to be.

Well, if that's true, then why?

Why did God mean it to be that way?

And how could that be loving?

And the only way I can reconcile that is that God loves itself and it loves the process of creation enough that it wants to continue to evolve.

1:46:06

And it and we can't evolve unless there's contrast for us to evolve through.

You know, and this is like the key to my entire life when something bad happens, right?

I get a letter from the IRS or you know, someone doesn't e-mail me back or whatever, you know, just any kind of the shit that happens in life and and you're fighting against it.

1:46:25

I always just look at is like, oh, wow, cool.

What am I supposed to be learning here?

Because obviously this wouldn't be happening if it wasn't meant to happen.

I truly believe that everything is absolutely intentional, that everything is in synchronistic.

1:46:42

I mean, the one hunt that I went on with, with Monsal, you know, we took some mushrooms on one of the middle days, and I just witnessed all this violence with the animals.

It was the first time I'd shot a big animal.

And I mean, it was just this incredibly moving experience.

1:46:58

So I was wrestling with guilt and life and death and suffering.

It was so clear to me that the entire thing was orchestrated.

Like these hogs came in.

They knew where they were going, what was going to happen.

The whole thing was like a chess board.

That consciousness was just like, oh, you guys want to have this experience?

1:47:15

Either cool, so does this pig.

So does that deer.

It's like everything was just so completely orchestrated that I was just able to see like, wow, not only is everything orchestrated and the only time I really suffer is when I fight against and resist that orchestration or I make, you know, poor decisions in my role in that orchestra that caused me or other people more suffering.

1:47:38

But the huge take away is that nothing can die.

There is like death is absolutely a complete fallacy.

It's impossible for something to die because consciousness isn't alive to be made dead, right?

It's like just physical manifestations of a non physical energy we call love and creation.

1:47:59

So if that's all true then what the hell am I doing here and what is the point?

And when it goes back to forgiveness, the point can't be to experience pain and then keep reliving that pain for the rest of your life willingly.

1:48:15

It must be to experience pain and go, What juice can I squeeze out of this pain?

And one of the sweetest juices is to forgive the unforgivable, which for me means forgiving everything and everyone across all time and space, without reservation.

1:48:35

Well, there's that great scene in The Matrix where Agent Smith is like, the first version of the Matrix we built was a utopia, but your species rejected it, you know, like it, like we wouldn't accept, you know, a utopia.

1:48:51

So that's like back to your kindergarten metaphor.

You know, if we put the astrophysicist in kindergarten, there's like, not enough challenge, right?

Everybody had the experience of doing something that isn't challenging enough.

And so it's boring.

It's like if you told me like, hey, go back and be a vegetarian, it's OK.

1:49:09

That was one of the little experiments along the way.

It's like, OK, yeah, I, I passed that.

And nothing against vegetarians, right?

I mean, it could very well happen for me again if I found some spiritual reason to do so.

But, you know, I've just, I've done so many experiments in my life of different disciplines and teachings and things like that.

1:49:25

And it's like, OK, cool.

I've graduated so many of these little experiments and then I'm, I'm at a different level of understanding and therefore my life is different, you know, But all of all of this, including, you know, the sense of loneliness, which I've been focused on, all of it is based on perception.

1:49:42

So you can take, you know, a kid who's molested at six, it's a really painful, difficult life, becomes a drug addict.

And you could look at that and go, Oh my God, how tragic, how sad.

That shouldn't have happened.

You know, this world isn't fair and so on.

1:49:57

But as a result of that experience, I was eventually forced to confront not only the existence of God just in a contemplative way, and not even just a belief in God the next level, but to the point where I think there's no other choice but to surrender my soul and my will to God.

1:50:19

OK, you're really getting into the crux of it here for me, because right now in my prayer and meditation time, I'm, I'm thinking a lot about free will because I'm a slave to certain psychological patterns that I would like to break.

1:50:35

And so I'm reminding myself everyday like, Hey, you have been given this gift called free will.

This is what's so interesting because if this dimension, this creation, this simulation, this hologram, this like, however you want to talk about it, if it has like a beginning and an end, then God can see the end from the beginning and the beginning from the end, which would give you the impression that you couldn't possibly have free will.

1:51:04

Cause all your decisions are known.

And yet you clearly have this experience of free will.

And then when the more you think about it, the greater the gift.

It appears to be like the ability to be at a crossroads and be like, I've been molested.

I could molest or I could confront the shadow, right?

1:51:22

It's like, and every choice, like a choose your own adventure, every choice can build and build and take you higher and higher or lower and lower, right?

So we see people going lower and lower in their vibration or however you want to say that lower and darker and shadowier or higher and lighter and, and more free.

1:51:41

And that's a function of your free will, which is I think the greatest possible gift that you could have.

It almost seems impossible that finite beings could have that and yet we do.

So this whole thing of forgiveness, it's like in every moment you have this opportunity to forgive or not.

1:52:04

It's really like you said, it's up to you.

It's up to you if you want to shoot up the school, like you get all this free will to do with what you will.

But it's like the great currency of your life is your free will.

And I think earlier, you know, you brought up boundaries.

So we kind of, we hit on forgiveness, which is a free will thing.

1:52:22

We hit on boundaries.

That's another free will thing, right?

It's like I can let somebody walk over all over me or I can set a boundary.

I can love myself and love them enough to set a boundary, but that's going to be an act of my will.

I can be addicted to something or decide I want to stop.

1:52:38

That's right.

We call it willpower, right?

It's like, do I want to exert my will?

Will?

I exert my will, you know?

But I do think when it comes to these conversations about God, it's like the greatest gift of this simulation, you know, in the biblical narrative, when you read it, you read about these angels, you're like, do these angels have any agency?

1:52:58

You know, like they're like, it's almost as you could you, you could get the impression that they're jealous of human free will a little bit.

You know, you have these like stories of angels and like all they do all day long is go holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty.

That's like all they do.

1:53:14

You're like, oh, that's a lot more actions that I can do in a day, you know, so you get all this free will.

And I think sometimes when I think about those parasitic dark forces that we deal with in this realm, that's what they're after.

They want to subvert your free will.

1:53:31

They want you to think you don't have free will, an agency.

And then they want to get you to direct their your will, to bend your will to their desire, right.

And so I kind of feel like this whole realm is a bit of a of a battleground for what you'll do with your free will.

1:53:51

Yeah, I mean, there's such a great paradox in that the, the, the ultimate cosmic giggle to me is the idea of free will in my life.

When it's been misdirected, as it has been often, it's caused me to go further into separation, further into suffering.

1:54:10

When I've applied that will and committed to aligning it with God's will for me, to the best of my understanding, there's less suffering and more love.

So it's like God goes here.

You want to Incarnate cool, do your thing, do what you want, and ultimately what you're going to arrive at is giving your will back to me.

1:54:29

That's the whole, that's the whole mind blow of it is.

When?

I take agency of my free will.

I make so many mistakes and when I say, God show me what to do and I'll do it.

And then it's like, oh, he then he does.

1:54:46

And it's like, oh, I don't really want to do that though.

And then it's like, but I'll do it.

And then it's like, oh, you know, like you learn that.

There's that.

It's that he's benevolent in that way.

So it encourages you to like give your will over.

But that's like a really hard thing to understand.

1:55:01

And I know you've and I have talked about, I can't ever remember the name of the guy who who wrote Power over force or power.

Of David R Hawkins, Power versus force.

Yeah, OK.

He's he's my all time favorite teacher ever.

1:55:17

OK, yeah, I've.

He's one I've never been able to outgrow.

You know, it's like you get a book, you go to some lectures.

I mean, I've had so many great teachers along the way and it's not I outgrow like, oh, I'm superior to them now.

It's just their message or their level of understanding was exactly what I needed at a certain level of development.

1:55:38

But he's one I just.

I've never surpassed.

I've never picked up his book.

And I'm like, well, yeah, duh.

Like I kind of been doing that for a while, you know?

Yeah, he.

Was he has a scale of consciousness right where it's like Jesus at the top and like, yeah, I don't even remember what's at the bottom.

Shame.

1:55:53

Shame is at the bottom, yeah.

OK, All right, great.

So.

It's a beautiful, it's a beautiful model, yeah.

And I can.

Break it down.

I like it because there's this sense of one of the things I remember from that book is him saying something like an Adolf Hitler you would think would be at the bottom, but actually he was trying to do something to improve the situation that he perceived, which is better than actually defeat.

1:56:19

So it's actually a level of consciousness above total defeat or whatever.

Like you'd think like, oh, that's the lowest consciousness was like, no, there's all these levels below that even, right.

So think about like why I illustrate it like that is just thinking about there's a, there's a level of consciousness where you're like, I'm going to take my free will and I'm going to go out and I'm going to do stuff.

1:56:43

And it's like, I don't know where that is.

Maybe that's like halfway on the scale or something.

It's like from one perspective that's really commendable.

Like, yeah, good on you.

But then there's this higher perspective where you look down, you're like, no, the bigger thing is actually just to relinquish that will to God, which when you're down at that other place looks like naive and stupid and like, what are you doing?

1:57:05

You're completely giving up your agency.

It's funny how as you, as you work your way up that hierarchy or up that scale, things that look like really bad decisions can look like good decisions and vice versa.

1:57:21

I don't know if I'm articulating that well.

That that model to me has been so instrumental.

It's really interesting.

I mean, it's great if you have a visual of it, right?

But shame I think is at the very bottom.

Then apathy.

Then you get anger is a little more empowering than apathy, I think.

1:57:39

That's kind of what he was saying was like, yeah, there's coming with the anger, which is a level above some of these other things.

And then you have you have courage, then you have humility, willingness and so on.

At the very top of the scale is love.

So the idea there in terms of like personal empowerment, it's like, wow, your will, if it's coming from a place of force and exertion, is actually much less effective than a place of surrender.

1:58:06

It's so paradoxical, right?

Surrender, like I'm badass.

I'm not putting up the white flag.

It's like, that's OK.

You can run that out for a while eventually.

So you're out of energy.

You're going to hit.

Yeah, you're going to hit fortifying the.

Walls.

But I mean that to me, that model is just the thing that makes the most sense to me because my direct life experience is so parallel with it.

1:58:28

And I think where people get caught up, something I write a lot about in the book is the principle of surrender because it's it's so, you know, crucial to addiction recovery.

And I think to your average person, the word surrender would be admitting defeat, giving up, being weak.

When surrender in my world, it just means I'm actually just opening myself up to be able to access more power, intelligence, and greater.

1:58:53

Power.

Yeah, much greater power.

And so, you know, I, I think my life kind of is built on a foundation of surrender.

But where people, I think misunderstand that is that you're no longer proactive or creative, or that you don't have a sense of direction in terms of where you put your.

1:59:13

That's not the experience of it.

Yeah.

And where your free will guide you.

So my very simplistic way of kind of explaining this is I have ideas, right?

I want to go here, I want to go there.

I want this thing or that thing, this outcome, this material object, whatever it is, right?

1:59:29

It's like, I get an idea, like, yeah, I want actually what I really want is the feeling that I believe that event or thing is going to produce.

I mean, if I really look deeper, it's not the thing.

The thing is a symbol for a state that I want to experience security, safety, whatever.

It's like people are after like abundance and manifest.

1:59:46

And it's like, no, it's not the thing.

It's what you believe The thing is going to provide you, right?

But let's just say there's something I want.

What I want in my life right now is to have enough money to not have to fly commercial, like legit.

And that's a lot of money, you know, it is.

2:00:02

Am I willing to sell my soul for it?

Absolutely.

A lot of money, actually, yeah.

But if I, you know, if I can somehow get there and maintain my level of integrity that there's just like the core of who I am, then so be.

It you don't have to like eat children or something to.

Yeah, or just, you know, grift on shitty supplements or whatever, you know, so, OK, so, and I'm just using kind of a silly example, but that actually is true.

2:00:22

I mean, that to me, that's the only thing of value with actually having a lot of money.

That's the only real, like, good use of it.

I could see is like calling them, you know, five of my homies and being like, hey, we're going to the South of France for the summer, let's go.

You know, like that would be a nice use of resources.

2:00:38

But anyway, so OK, say I have a thing that I want, right?

Or I want to get in shape.

It could be anything, but let's just say, OK, I, I want you know, to fly private.

Not for Instagram, but literally just for comfort and not ever having to talk to Atsa goon ever again.

Have my shit rifled through and my testicles rubbed because I won't go through the X-ray 5G machine.

2:00:59

So OK, I want this.

I want this thing.

There's nothing wrong with wanting it, no matter what my motives are, but I only want it if that's God's will for me because I have enough life experience of chasing and grinding and forcing to get what I want.

2:01:18

And in many cases, if not most, that thing A didn't provide the result or the feeling that I had attached to it B.

It was a terrible decision and actually diminished my life rather than adding to it.

Yeah.

And I have so many examples of just dreams and goals that I've had.

2:01:35

And then I work really hard, I force, I grind.

I don't get it.

I'm disappointed.

Couple years go by, I look back and go, Oh my God, dodged a bullet on that one.

Like that would have been a terrible decision, right?

So it's like for me, it's I'm just not in the results business.

2:01:51

I'll put like, I just wrote this book.

I have a vision for the book.

I want a New York Times bestseller.

I want to sell at least 1,000,000 copies.

I want it to be a perennial seller, like a classic book that touches the hearts of many, many people for years to come.

I wrote it the entire time.

2:02:06

That was my intention.

That's why I edited over and over, and I mean every word.

Just dissecting, refining, refining, refining until it was like a diamond, The cleanest, most pure, potent, beautiful diamond I could have ever hoped to create.

Now I go on to your podcasts.

2:02:23

I'm going on some other podcasts.

I have some speaking gigs.

It's like I don't need to worry about it because I already did my part.

God's part is like what this book is going to mean to my life or to other people's lives.

If I was still attached to the outcome, I wouldn't be in surrender.

2:02:39

And even in the process of writing the book, I had to be in surrender because there were days I didn't want to do it or I didn't want to look at the things that were, you know, sticky and uncomfortable to to delve into.

So it's like from the the microcosm of the moment I wake up, like yesterday I missed a really important meeting because I had a podcast and I just have no sense of time.

2:02:57

When I get in a flow state, I just, I'm like literally on another planet.

I was, I missed it by an hour.

I mean, I was like totally delusional.

Yeah.

I just, and it was a really important meeting.

I just ghosted, you know, and so I just thought, well, OK, I'm going to have to a I'm going to, I'm going to use my will to set up the kind of a system with my production assistant where he's going to know my calendar and he's going to go, hey, we got to stop.

2:03:21

OK.

So I did something to correct that from happening in the future.

I didn't just, you know, kind of succumb to the fact that I'm going to just miss important meetings all the time because I feel like it, right?

It's OK.

I got to take an action here, but then in terms of the fears of what I missed in the meeting and how I'm going to lose, I'm not going to get something that I wanted, etcetera.

2:03:41

It's just like, oh, obviously if I was supposed to be on that meeting, I would have been.

And because I wasn't, that's amazing, beautiful.

I wasn't supposed to be there, right?

It's like everything is in a constant state of surrender.

If I see resistance, it's like if there's something I can change through my will and and wisdom, I'll change it.

2:04:01

And if I can't, it's like instantly let it go, let it go, let it go.

And, and doing that even in, in the microcosm of my life with something relatively insignificant, like missing a meeting that that extends out to, you know, my relationships and career and the meaning of my life and where my life goes and what happens when I retire and what happens when I die.

2:04:24

You know, it's like the same principle applies across the entire spectrum of human experience.

And because I practice it enough for so many years, I mean decades now, I've never been proven wrong.

So I have no reason to believe otherwise that if I align my will to God, I turn my will in my life over to the care of God, that I can still participate, but only to a point.

2:04:49

There's a certain point at which I have to leave the results of my actions, kind of the fruits of my labor up to something that's more intelligent than I am as a, as a single Organism, right?

Because I'm, I'm limited in my capacity to understand the larger context of time and what that actually means and what's going to happen.

2:05:08

So I'm kind of on earth playing along with the game of time and calendars.

I'm not that great at it, obviously, but it's like I'm going to be wherever I'm supposed to be.

And if I'm supposed to be, you know, traveling around in a private jet and having less friction in the way I move around the world, amazing.

2:05:23

Thank you.

God.

If I'm not, what does that mean?

That means those TSA goons have something to teach me.

The uncomfortable EMF playing with people with bad perfume and, you know, ear with those little like earbuds next to me and I'm freaking out about their Bluetooth, you know, rotting my brain, whatever.

2:05:41

It's like, OK, that's what I meant to be doing.

I'm, I'm gonna find a way to surrender to that.

And it's just like, wow, we can live in a life with less friction just by letting go.

I have my preferences, but I'm not attached to my preferences.

2:05:57

It's like, 'cause I just don't trust myself in a sense, right?

All of so many great ideas I've had in my life ended up really not being satisfactory and in many cases also just made my life worse.

Just flat out objectively.

So I play along, I do my thing, I have my goals and objectives, but like, hey man, if it's not supposed to happen, please take it from me.

2:06:18

Wow, that was funny.

My camera just you got like an AI gesture, gesture action, God's like.

I heard you on that one, Luke.

You know what I'm thinking.

About as you say this.

As you know, I'm just such a.

Fan of Jesus, and I think he's at the top of that scale we were talking about, right?

2:06:36

Like, so he represents sort of the highest form of consciousness and he goes to his death like this brutal death, right?

And he does it.

In surrender and so the night before he's praying and he says father, is there any way you can take this cup from me Nevertheless your will be done not mine so he's but he's like I don't really want to do this but you're saying to do this right then he goes and is not just killed but like brutally and in the most shameful way for that era right because he's like hung in front of everybody naked shamefully on this cross.

2:07:18

It's like it's like a curse and his not only is he the most like I looked.

This up recently like.

Who's the most written about human being who's ever lived?

It's Jesus.

He's had the greatest impact on the world of any human being and for 2000 years.

2:07:42

And just continues to.

And you can't.

Get rid of him, right?

It's like.

Plenty of attempts.

You just can't get rid of this guy.

Like even now in this most secular moment ever, he's like making this comeback, you know, and like everybody's talking about him again.

But like what's he do?

He surrenders his will to God and even to the point of like something that looks like why would you let this happen to you?

2:08:05

But then that act of service becomes the most talked about thing in all of human history.

And it's actually called the gospel, which means the good news, which is like, great, right?

So like, just to really like hammer your point home, 'cause it's one thing like, 'cause I think there's a, there's a real new age idea that like, if I align myself with God, everything will always be good for me, which I don't find I have not found to be borne out to be true, you know?

2:08:38

But there is that sense like, and one thing I appreciate about Christians is that they are much more realistic about that.

I got a lot of complaints too about the church and the Christians as well.

But say one thing I like is that they don't have that sense of that the, that the more the new age side has of like, yeah, it's just going to be like perfect fields of roses all the time as long as I lift my vibration or whatever.

2:09:00

And it's like, I mean, Jesus to me is the highest vibration.

Dude goes to the cross, you know, and and but it's but again, like if you were to look at the like, that looks like the worst possible thing right up until three days later.

And then you're like, oh, this is the best thing that could have ever happened.

2:09:18

And it comes from surrendering your will to God.

And so I think that, you know, for most of us, thankfully, it's that's not such a catastrophic process.

But but you know, you look through time and sometimes it is.

And for some of us alive today, like maybe it will be in the future, like who knows?

2:09:35

You know, like what we have to endure in order to not compromise ourselves, you know, but like, you know, I think like we look back a few years and we were all pressured pretty heavily to compromise ourselves and, and those of us who chose not to had to deal with some difficult consequences.

2:09:51

And you know, and I think that's a, a, probably a prelude to more to come.

So ultimately I think if I align.

Myself with my own will, yeah.

I I create more suffering and if I align myself my will with God's will, even though there might be suffering, there's like somehow a greater reward still, you know, I guess that's what I'm trying to say from all that.

2:10:15

I mean, my prayers are when I, when I want something, right?

I mean I don't my.

Relationship with prayer is not that of a, you know, a kid on Christmas Eve.

You know, it's like, it's not give me a private jet.

It's, it's not that.

It's more like, hey, here's this outcome that I feel pretty attached to and I'm willing to do my part to fulfill that attachment if it serves my highest good and the highest good for all of creation.

2:10:44

So that's what I'm after.

I'm not after the highest good for me because I've got the highest good for me and it's not been good for other people.

Right, right, right, right, right.

Yes, yes, exactly.

And so it's like.

That that's the basis.

2:10:59

Of all.

Of my prayer is I'm always.

Aiming for the highest good for all of creation, which is also inclusive of those I would perceive to be on a more limited level, my enemies, You know, can I pray for the highest good for Bill Gates and Klaus Schwab and, you know, the Jeffrey Epstein class and all these people?

2:11:18

Yeah, I can actually do that earnestly because ultimately I view those people as victims.

Yep.

And they are on.

And they are.

Yeah.

They are victims of delusion.

You know, they're they've.

Been overtaken by Dark.

Forces.

And and because of that, Luke, it's like, what's so crazy is they are losing the game.

2:11:36

It's like this game we talked about that we're all players in.

They appear to be the winners and they're the losers.

That's what I can't get over that It's like, oh, they've amassed all the wealth and all the sex and all the power and all the stuff and and they are absolutely enslaved to darkness and they probably experience almost no joy in anything that they do.

2:12:06

And it OK.

But recently man, I started to realize my algorithm was getting dark and.

It's, you know, the challenge.

Like it's hard.

When you're I'm building.

This new podcast, I'm, it's like it's hard not to be on there trying to work your thing, you know, even though Instagram's throttled me for six years, eight years now with the same number of followers.

2:12:31

But anyway, I'm on there trying to work my thing.

And it's just like everything is not untrue, just dark, you know?

And I stumble onto this video of like a guy who's a Barber.

I don't know if you've seen any of these.

And he goes out and like, finds homeless people on the street, brings his whole kit and like, gives them a haircut, washes them, gives them new clothes and like, it's the most beautiful thing.

2:12:55

And I'm like, oh, follow.

And then I'm like, who's who else?

Follow, follow, follow.

I start filling my algorithm with these like, good deeds, you know, and you start seeing.

And by the way, eventually it's a little disillusioning because you're like, this is a whole scene of its own, you know, or you like start to eventually realize like, OK, I.

2:13:14

Don't know how this is really.

Working but it's not as genuine as it initially appears, but still nice stuff to see.

But I start seeing that these people living on the street off and have more joy than these billionaires.

More connection.

2:13:30

You wouldn't.

Think you know and then.

And you or you see that like just a simple act of kindness like that is more rewarding probably than creating like the first artificial intelligence that, you know, can, you know, run a country or whatever.

2:13:47

It's like you'd.

Think, but it's the reverse.

You know, it's like the little, the little things are so, so in that way, these people are really victims.

They are really suffer, suffering from their own.

They've gone so far into their own will and not submitting their will to God.

2:14:04

They've gone so far down that road we were talking about and it's allowed them to achieve things that aren't healthy to have.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean that that going back to the forgiveness piece when it comes to.

Seemingly unforgivable people like many of the people in the parasite class seem to be.

2:14:25

I mean, I feel a authentic sense of compassion for them because I know the price that they're going to have to pay.

And it's like, whoa, I mean, I know the price I've paid for ways in which I've deviated, right?

And just, I mean, not just been selfish and just hurt people just through ignorance, right?

2:14:46

I mean, not even not even being benevolent, just unconscious and just kind of, you know, in a survival kind of addict way of life and have paid the price over and over again for any transgression.

So I can only imagine if you've dedicated your life to exploiting, harming, raping, killing people.

2:15:07

I mean, your life carries on after you leave this body.

I'm sorry to tell you.

And like what?

What realm, You know, I don't, you might call it heaven and hell.

You call it whatever.

But whatever realm that you're going to go to after you leave this body, I really wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.

2:15:25

You know, it's like, oh, you think you're clever now, but the thing because you're forgetting that you got to take the the goggles off at some point.

I had, you know, you said.

You said before you hadn't had a a salvia experience.

I about 20 years ago, I hit it hard one time like a 40X salvia and I, I like DMTI immediately was out of my body, but I wasn't expecting it like with DMTI was like prepared that was going to happen with salvia.

2:15:54

I was not expecting it in a body that like a store in Montreal.

I thought like how, how strong can it be?

Suddenly I'm out of my body, but I'm in a courtroom like I'm in a cosmic court and I'm being accused of all of these things and I cannot speak to defend myself.

2:16:16

You got shells this vision.

What was weird about?

It's the only time I've had this.

I was there for 2.

Weeks, but I was really only there for like 20 seconds.

But I had an experience of being in this court, all of these accusations, then not being able to speak, then being put into a holding cell, which I was in for two weeks before being dragged back into the court.

2:16:39

And I, when I came back, I was saying I was blurry splurring, and I was saying let Daniel back in.

And my friends were hearing me say that, you know, but I was speaking in that courtroom, like let Daniel back anyway.

I had the experience of like judgement for my actions, you know, and.

2:17:02

That's a hard.

Thing to forget it's a reminder like Oh yeah you know, like it's not just yeah, like some.

Point you're going to be.

Accountable for everything, you know, And I mean the yeah, the Akashic record is very real.

I had a similar experience with.

2:17:18

With an extended DMT journey and it was like, I don't know the only way I can describe it.

Sort of like a courtroom.

But it wasn't a physical space.

It was just more like empty space, but there was awareness, just pure awareness.

2:17:35

But it was like an Akashic Hall of records.

And I was in there talking to people, one of them being the man who molested me.

And I really went toe to toe and kind of a confrontation with that, which helped me with forgiveness because I saw that it wasn't actually that particular entity that did that to me.

2:17:55

It was just the force of evil behind him that motivated him to do that.

So I was like in this court and then kind of dealt with him and went past him and then faced the Big E, you know what I mean?

And it was like the photo boss.

Fuck.

2:18:12

Whoa dude, you're like stepping.

Into.

Some gnarly territory.

Here you.

Know and and honestly that was one of one of the only times I very sincerely.

Prayed to.

Christ and asked for Christ's protection when I was in that realm, I just intuitively and I, I didn't grow up with Christianity.

2:18:34

I mean, I, yeah.

Yeah, but you, you.

Know you got to call in the big guns.

That's, I mean, hey man, you know.

It's that's that that was my guy, 'cause it was like.

Oh shit, I just stepped into some deep water here and I don't know if I'm equipped for this.

I, I feel like I held my own pretty well, but the point being is that I was able to see into this realm where deception is impossible and there is no hiding anything.

2:19:01

Like all truth, all truth is on the table.

There's, there is just inconceivable that you could possibly lie in any meaningful way in there.

So I was talking to my wife, some of my family members and it was just like I was just my soul was completely naked.

2:19:19

So all was known and it gave me a little glimpse into that realm didn't just exist laying on that Matt on DMT, that realm exists all the time.

Yeah, more real than that Matt.

That realm is here right now, and it's.

2:19:37

That realm is taking a record of every thought.

Word and deed that I have and it was like a huge, I mean, I think I was already pretty, you know, high integrity at that point in my life.

This is a couple years ago.

2:19:52

I mean, I already had a sense of that, but it was such a tangible experience of like, oh, no one's getting away with anything, man.

There's a place where your soul goes and it's like, OK, let's look at.

The record and if it's a if.

It's like a dimensional thing.

Or if we want to use that as a framework, I think that's so.

2:20:09

Powerful because it's like, all right, we're in three dimensions.

If I draw a square on a page, I can see the inside of the square in 2 dimensions.

But if I'm the square on the two-dimensional realm and I see another square, we're looking at each other from the side.

We can't see into each other because we have no sense of height.

2:20:25

Yeah, but from outside, they're naked and exposed to me.

I can see inside them.

A fourth dimensional being cannot just see you, but can completely see through you.

Right.

So at a higher dimension to those beat.

So here in this dimension, I can put on a subterfuge, camouflage my deceit, present to you, whatever I want to present to you.

2:20:47

But from that 4th dimension, I'm Naked and exposed completely all seen, right.

So I do think that that's going to be, I sometimes think I can't, you know, you, you know, when you reach that point, you're like, oh, I'm never going to unravel how this conspiracy works.

So I'm like never going to unravel how this true power structure works or what this place is like.

2:21:07

I'm getting older, I'm getting grayer, I'm getting longer in the tooth.

It's like I've.

I'm like, oh, I am no closer now than I ever was.

It's just there's more and more.

You'll never get to the bottom of it.

You can't know.

But there's this promise that like one day everything will be known.

2:21:22

Yeah.

And that I am very eager for.

But it also means that everything about me is known too.

And so.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Yeah.

It's like if you if you're living in.

A transparent existence, even though you're in the physical world, but you know, it's transparent on another level.

2:21:44

It does have a tendency to get you to mind your PS and QS.

You know, like when I was in that, when I was in that experience, it, it became so clear to me that because I, we were like communicating soul to soul, Like I was no longer kind of a Luke and there wasn't a body and there was no physicality or really any visual element to it.

2:22:04

It was just a super consciousness kind of knowing.

And when I came out of that, I realized that even though within our conscious minds we can't read each other's minds, but if I'm having a thought about someone, their soul knows that I'm doing it in real time now.

2:22:22

Yeah.

And you really you, you can't even really hide anything in the material.

Plane.

Because we're also existing on a non material plane simultaneously and we only think that we're hiding whatever we're hiding, whether that's something positive or not, right?

2:22:38

I mean, I could be sitting there thinking about how much I love my wife.

I don't have to tell her that, which I do, of course, on this plane.

But she knows what I'm thinking and doing because her soul is also looking down at that little box, watching what Luke is doing, right?

It's like all is known, all is counted, all is recorded for eternity.

2:22:59

And that's what's interesting.

Really levels the playing field.

You know where it's like, OK, wow, that that.

Means my integrity.

Needs to be highly refined and it needs to be coming more and more refined all the time because the things that I think and feel that no one knows about aren't actually private on one level of existence.

2:23:20

And I mean, that really changes the whole the whole board, the whole game board.

But the way it's being set up now, this is what's interesting.

Earlier, we were, I was.

Saying how the, so you know, the elites, whatever you want to call them, the parasite class, they want to be like gods, right?

2:23:38

They want to be gods.

And so they're setting up their digital panopticon to try to make it so that everything is watched, everything is recorded.

And they think your behavior is all going to fall in line, like you said, because you'll know that you're always being watched by satellites and drones and cameras and your watch internal sensors and all these things, right?

2:23:59

So like everything.

OK, so that's the counterfeit.

That's the facility where it's like everybody behaves properly because they're like China style being monitored and credit scored.

And that's the, that's the twisted, dark version of the real thing, which is, no, I want to, I want to behave that way from an internal sense of wanting to be clear and clean in my spirit, not because I'm being so, so the real God sets this thing up and then allows you, if you want, you can make all those bad decisions, these fake gods with their fake panopticon.

2:24:39

It's like an inversion of it.

They're going to try to force you into the behavior they want by, by fear rather than by the internal motivation.

So what you just said before, which is like, I want to have that internal integrity because all this is going to be known.

That's like coming from the right place internally.

2:24:56

You come to that conclusion versus being forced by fear into it, right?

It's like coming from that's your inner love rather than that external fear trigger or or I, I never made that correlation.

That's really interesting, but it makes perfect sense because.

2:25:11

Everything is based on inversion in the realm of, you know, benevolence.

I mean, that's, that's how they do everything.

Everything is backwards.

It's, it's meant to confuse the mind.

Like everything is, you know, really a mental unoriginal too.

That's the thing about it too.

2:25:27

It's like incapable of creativity.

So all it can do is invert reality, invert the truth, invert biology, invert psychology, invert love, like everything just gets inverted because it can't really create anything.

2:25:43

By the way, this is this funny thing it brings me to when it comes, we've been talking about psychedelic plants a little bit here, you know, antheogenic plants and you know, like in the world, some of the world's I walk in, in the churches and stuff.

It's like that's like a taboo.

You don't even, it doesn't really come up because it's so taboo, you know, like you just don't do that.

2:26:00

And I was like, yeah, but like, did the devil create these plants?

Like, you know what I mean?

Like, what do you right.

Didn't like make anything.

You know, it's not like in the Bible.

It's like, oh, yeah.

And then Satan had a chance.

To do some.

Creation and he made a bunch of plants you're not supposed to have.

It's like you know, like that's never that's not how it works like that means they were put here, you know, like what are they for you know, but you just I think there's me.

2:26:24

What's that go ahead.

I was just going to say I I sense in evil and incredible.

You know, when people are like who don't believe that there could be any conspiracy, we're running out.

Of those people, obviously.

But those folks will often be like, no one can coordinate such a complex.

It's like, yeah, yeah, that's it's because it's run by a non human intelligence.

2:26:43

And that non human intelligence is incredibly sophisticated, but not creative.

Yeah, yeah.

Beautifully said.

If they were creative, they wouldn't have.

To siphon our resources, Right, right.

Yeah, yeah.

It's like, look at tax, taxation and and all of that.

2:27:00

It's like, why don't you guys go build something?

Sure.

We're just going to take a percentage of yours because you exist.

Yeah.

It's like parasites.

You look at parasites and they're so ugly, and then you look at like.

Birds, let's say, and they, they have this incredible diversity of beauty that they emanate all this creativity of different colors and different feather displays and dances and all this stuff.

2:27:24

But then you look at parasites and they're like, no creativity.

They're like baseline, whatever, just they need to be in order to get that blood they're after.

And they're so ugly to us.

They lack any kind of display of anything social or creative.

You know, like a tapeworm, you're like, you just look at it, you're like, that's ugly.

2:27:45

Well, you could look at a snake and be like, hey, I'm not really into snakes, but that's beautiful, but you'll get a tapeworm.

You're like, I don't see.

There's just no way for me to get like a beauty hit from that.

I just get none.

I just see ugly, you know?

You know what's really interesting?

Going back to the Hawkins scale of consciousness.

2:28:03

At the you know it goes from zero to 1000.

It's a logarithmic scale, right?

As you said, Christ, Buddha, these avatars are at 1000, which is the maximum, the maximum power of consciousness that the human biological system can with stain basically right at the AT and you get into the lower numbers, you know, a serial killer.

2:28:25

I mean, you're talking like 35, right?

And then it goes down from there.

But he also, he also rated the animal Kingdom.

And so at the very bottom, you know, a two or three is like an amoeba bacteria and then you get up to 4, it's a parasite and so on.

It's really interesting to look at the correlation of sophistication and beauty of the animal Kingdom.

2:28:45

They also go up in power and and two animals that that reach a really high place on the scale are house cats and domestic dogs.

A dog's wagging tail I think calibrates at 500, which is like, you know, and A and a, a bear is like 195.

2:29:06

And it's interesting that carnivorous predator animals are always under 200 and 200 is the level of integrity.

Interestingly enough, he didn't demonize animals that eat other animals.

It's just interesting.

There's like benevolence to to animals who are herbivores versus those that have to kill in order to sustain themselves.

2:29:24

Although killing plants is obviously killing too.

But it just reminded me of that because I think, wow, so a pedophile is like only a few steps above an amoeba, you know what I mean?

It's like, and then, you know, Hitler's like way up at 90, right?

Because that's my point earlier.

2:29:40

It's like because.

His.

His you know, he might have been dark.

And evil and harm people, but the intentionality in the.

Context also matters, right?

He was way above the level of consciousness of a of a street serial killer, you know, a Ted Bundy or something like that, right?

Because still doesn't crack 100 buddies.

2:29:57

Yeah, yeah.

Right.

So that that that is.

Just an interesting observation, but you reminded me of.

Something I just want.

I just wanted to tell you it's just a funny story.

Years ago, before, you know, I was in my sobriety.

And so, I mean, I'd never would have even dreamed of taking mushrooms or ayahuasca or anything.

2:30:13

I mean, it's just like, I didn't even know you could work with psychedelics in any sort of constructive way because I always do drugs to you at the time.

Yeah.

I mean, it's just like I used to take acid mushrooms all the time and I would do heroin.

And crack and get.

Drunk on them.

I never did them like with and I mask on, you know, like God forbid, hell no.

2:30:32

Once they started showing me myself that I would have to turn down the volume and numb out, you know, but I remember it's funny.

I know exactly where I was.

I was on the one-on-one freeway out near Calabasas and we were on the phone and you were telling me about 5 meo DMT about Bufo and you were describing the experience.

2:30:49

You know, you just take one big hit and then you go into this really, you know, kind of peak experience and then it subsides in about 20 minutes.

And I remember asking you when I was so confused that you wouldn't keep wanting to do it over and over again.

The way you described it sounded kind of like smoking crack when you take a big hit of.

2:31:07

Crack.

I mean, you go into.

This like, you know, just major like dopamine explosion and everything kind of you go black, you kind of go blind and deaf and you're you're not there for a minute, you know, I mean, it's a it's a very like a lower version of that, but OK, you know, I was very addicted to that.

2:31:22

I remember asking you like, don't you want to pick the pipe up again and keep doing it all day every and you were like, no, not really that kind of thing.

Once a decade, you might not ever want to do it again in.

Fact.

But yeah, this is a cute, you know?

2:31:37

Just my naivete around around anti agent and and you were right.

Although one day I did do 4 journeys in one day.

It just, I don't know, it just unfolded that way and it was, it was pretty destabilizing to say the least, but also revelatory and beautiful.

2:31:53

Do you feel like what are, what are your thoughts?

I think we should touch on this real quick because.

These things went from like, well, I mean they, they sort of emerged in the 60s right now we're seeing that there didn't emerge necessarily organically.

2:32:09

There was like a lot of CI AM, K Ultra and K often, you know, all these kind of programs like, you know, a lot of these guys from Jim Morrison to, you know, who was the guy who the TuneIn drop out guy there, Timothy Leary.

2:32:25

Yeah, all these guys are involved.

Zappa.

Yeah, yeah, the grateful.

Dead right?

I mean and then later on I.

Mean can you even?

Believe like even hip hop, it's like all of it, right?

So like all this, not not organic, but for us and in these purposes in the last decade and a half, entheogens have really emerged and we're talking about them.

2:32:48

You and I both have very.

Positive experiences, in fact, you know.

We're talking about my friends from church like this is an interesting thing because I sometimes really wish that my friends.

In that.

World would try it because their worldview feels very truncated to me, yet they're some of my.

2:33:10

Favorite people Because.

They actually live with integrity.

And then what I find is my friends in the Antheogen New Age world talk, the talk of integrity, but I mean rarely actually have embodied it, but.

2:33:25

They have like.

All the flowing language of it.

And then my friends in the Christian world have this, this like such a biblical.

Biblical is not the right word for it.

It's like a modern American evangelical conservative worldview where there's a lot of doom and hell and all these like things were like guys like, calm down, you know?

2:33:45

But but they have this man.

They have love, service and integrity.

But sometimes I'm like, oh man, I kind of wish that person would just try ayahuasca for an evening because like there's more that can happen.

You know, at the same time, I feel like I'm just curious at this point, do you have any warnings or, or any hesitations like when you recommend or talk about this?

2:34:09

Like how do you, because, because there's a couple things that are interesting. 1 is like you said before you came up using some of these substances in conjunction with just a party lifestyle to avoid the introspection.

But also like sometimes I've seen people just where you're like that.

2:34:26

I wish that person never done that.

They spun out way too far and never came back.

So yeah, how do you like, how do you want to put a frame around this?

I'm so I'm so glad you you asked and I felt a sense of.

Responsibility in my book to devote a whole chapter to exactly what you just asked, especially as someone in recovery who is very steeped.

2:34:47

In the 12.

Steps for 20 years before I drank ayahuasca.

And so I'm kind of I don't know I mean, I'm sure there are more people like me out there.

I'm hearing murmurs of it, but I've definitely taken an unorthodox path of sobriety to say the least, right.

2:35:04

The most proven model of addiction recovery is complete abstinence.

And that is the model that is prevalent in a A and for good reason.

I'm kind of on two sides of it.

There's a part of me that thinks, man, if you would have, you know, in my first 30 days in rehab, if you would have just loaded me up with some bufo or ayahuasca, I probably could have skipped years of dysfunction.

2:35:27

You know, because the 12 steps serve one purpose and the purpose is stated and the purpose is to get sober and help other alcohol Alcoholics to achieve sobriety.

That's, that's what it's for, right?

It's not for healing your trauma bound around being molested or circumcised.

2:35:46

You know, it's it's not the context and why why it has persevered for all of the years that it has and.

Been so.

Successful is because there is a set of traditions that are codified when a A was born, right?

That we don't talk about outside issues.

2:36:03

We're talking about being sober and being of service.

Like that's it, right?

And how you get sober is through having a spiritual experience, which is brought about by applying a set of spiritual principles in a very specific order and specific way to your life, which are all of the dozens of principles within the 12 steps.

2:36:21

So all are derived from Christianity, too.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Interesting, Right.

Yeah.

A A was born out of the Oxford Group.

Which was kind of a non denominational Christian group.

That was more like kind of a group therapy church kind of thing.

There was a lot of testimonies.

People would get up and testify and share their experience.

2:36:37

So from I've studied the origins of a A at depth for a lot of years, not so much anymore, but when I was in it, I was going like, how is this working?

I can't believe I'm sober.

I want to, I want to take this further than just sitting in a meeting and drinking bad coffee and like complaining or telling more stories like I've been transformed.

2:36:55

I want to know how to take that transformation to a deeper level.

And then eventually I hit a wall because there were traumas and other kind of addictions and behaviors I had, especially around sex and relationships that weren't appropriate for the context of Alcoholics Anonymous.

So I kind of like, I'm sorry, I hate to interrupt you, but I want to break in with just this point here.

2:37:13

Please put a pen in where you're at.

Because this is one of my challenges with the modern American churches.

A.

A begins with acknowledging.

Or one of which?

How early in the steps is it like the?

2:37:31

Calling on a higher power.

It's like the first thing, the first one is admitting you're powerless over alcohol and that your life's unmanageable.

The second one is coming to believe that a power greater than yourself can restore you to sanity.

Step 3 is turning your will and your life over to the care of God as you understand them.

2:37:48

OK, so this is the same.

And they all, they all come in order.

They all come in order for a reason.

Because if they weren't stacked in the way they.

Are you would never get to the subsequent ones that come later, such as, you know, being of service in step 12 for example?

OK, so that's a formulaic recipe.

2:38:04

Version of what?

Happens when a person and gets saved, right?

So they they realize like, oh, my life is like full of sin.

Then they recognize a higher power and then they devote and turn their will over that person and they get radically transformed.

2:38:22

I'm going to see this happen all the time.

Yeah.

But then they hit a wall because the church goes like, oh, you're in now, Come on Sundays.

We have a concert every Sunday.

Great, you know, and then read your Bible and go to Bible studies and you're going to be good.

And one of the things that's kind of come clear to me is that what happens for a lot of people is like, they get all this unresolved stuff that there's no, the church doesn't necessarily have like a here's.

2:38:50

How you work on that unresolved?

You know, there's this idea, Oh, Jesus is going to take all that away.

And then you're like, hey, man, I'm I'm all in on that.

But that's I still got all this stuff.

So I think it's interesting because you're, I say that because it parallels so much what you just said with a A and NA, which is like it works to transform you, but it's doesn't then go all the way back through and unravel everything that you have.

2:39:16

It just gets you back on your feet kind of right.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, it's, it's, it's unfortunate in a way, but.

Because it's set up with a limited kind of spectrum of focus.

That's also what's helped it last so long because it doesn't get diluted with all of the other theories and modalities and practices and belief systems.

2:39:37

There's there is no belief system in the 12 steps.

You know, I mean, it's just like, here are these first principles, these universal laws.

And if you learn what they are and how to apply them to your life, you will come to know God.

And if you come to know God, you won't be compelled to drink alcohol.

2:39:54

I mean, that's the basic premise of it, right?

But like, you know, you're observing in in church because it's.

Not designed.

To address certain issues, many people like me hit a certain point you're like, OK, cool, I'm sponsoring a bunch of people I'm happy, I'm successful, I'm functional I, you know, I've started a company or I hold a job like I, I am now like a contributing member of society rather than a deficit.

2:40:18

That's wonderful.

But in my case, those unresolved traumas from my childhood were still operational and still driving me in very dysfunctional ways outside of the confines of that program, which is why there are probably dozens of different 12 step groups that are appropriate for that.

2:40:38

You know, at one point I ended up in Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous because my issue was not alcohol anymore, you know, at 18 years or whatever it was like, yeah, OK, I get it, I'm not drinking.

But like, I'm going to a lot of brothels, you know what I'm saying?

It's like something here is not matching.

2:40:54

I'm going to India and studying meditation and.

Then on.

The way home, I'm stopping in Hong Kong to go completely wild with the, you know, the women on the street and then the casinos.

Like, there was definitely like a mismatch of behavior there, right.

Yeah.

I want that book too.

2:41:10

Next, please.

That's in this book.

Yeah.

You only got.

I only have.

The digital version dude, I.

Can't read digital books We're sending, you know well, you guys.

Sent it to me and I never got the hardcover so I'm like.

Waiting for the other the.

Publishers gonna send it to you and all the endorsers and whatnot, but.

So, so back to, you know, the antheogens and, and sobriety and the warnings.

2:41:30

That was your original question.

So, you know, I'm describing in the book how at 20 years sober, I had put down alcohol and then picked up my first cup of ayahuasca.

And there was a whole process of reconciliation and a lot of deep thought and contemplation that went into that decision.

2:41:48

It wasn't something that I took lightly at all because the implications are literally fatal.

You know what I mean?

Like I'm going to end up again, like in a pile of piss on a hotel room floor.

Like overdose. 100% on heroin, yeah.

And I, you know, I also knew that DMT is not addictive and I would argue that.

2:42:07

Any classical psychedelic is not inherently addictive, but in my past experience there was often a trigger or cascade effect which I call switching seats in the Titanic.

So like, I would quit Arrow and I didn't make it up, I think.

2:42:23

I think I heard that in rehab man.

That's great.

For example, you know my.

Brother's in the recovery world and he hits me with these kind.

Of sayings all the time they're they've got some brilliant stuff yeah there's there's some good ones yeah there's some good ones so for example I would you know I'd.

Starting to get really problematic with cracks so I go OK, I got to put the crack down then I would like double up on alcohol and heroin and exam.

2:42:44

You know, I just went back and forth on and on.

Inevitably the ship is still going down, right?

So, you know, I understand how the phenomenon of craving can get triggered if you take mind altering substances.

So I was, I was very apprehensive, but I was also desperate because I was in a place that no therapy, EMDR, hypnosis, I might consider for an hour and tell you all the things I did to go back and heal my childhood.

2:43:09

And I just, I couldn't reach it because it exists in the subconscious mind.

No, thinking about it, talking about it, crying about it would heal it, period.

And it was evident in my behavior and my just horribly dysfunctional relationships and, and the lack of capacity for any kind of true intimacy at all, you know, and just sexual deviance and acting out and just trying to fill a hole that drugs once filled.

2:43:36

And now recovery couldn't even fill that hole because I couldn't dig deep enough into the hole without the help that ayahuasca eventually gave me.

So chapter 10 in my book is how I reconciled being able to work with entheogens and also maintain my sobriety, which led me into the origin story of A A, which is fascinating and it's a whole other episode.

2:43:58

But entheogens are very much tied to the origins of A A the Co founder he had the Co founder had his spiritual transcendent experience that led to him getting sober and then creating the 12 steps under the influence of something called belladonna, which was a a plant medicine and sedative mixture they used to use in in mental hospitals and in detox centers.

2:44:23

I used to administer belladonna to people.

That's funny.

No way.

OK.

So, so the very basis and then later on in the. 60s he had some experiments.

With Aldous.

Huxley taking LSD in a in a clinical setting.

So it's like people in recovery don't like these inconvenient, you know, historical benchmarks, but they are relevant because what the 12 steps do is elicit a spiritual experience.

2:44:48

OK, It takes a really long time for most of us, and it doesn't come on suddenly.

It comes on over time.

You evolve, you grow, you elevate in your level of consciousness by applying these principles.

Well, turns out, in my experience, drinking some, you know, potent ayahuasca does that, you know, in about two hours, You know, I mean, you know, the onset, I mean to say, yeah, but with the work you can do in one night, I mean, it's insane.

2:45:15

Many.

Many, many names of therapy.

Yeah, yeah, It's just.

Insane.

So so to your to your point, because I.

I am definitely.

A proponent of psychedelics absolutely and unapologetically.

But I'm also, you know, I feel a sense of responsibility, especially for people who are in recovery.

2:45:33

I would never claim that it's appropriate for every sober person or every non sober person ever.

And I'll say that publicly, personally, if I hadn't, if I didn't have that sense of responsibility, I would say like, everyone needs to do it, you know?

2:45:49

Yeah.

Ohh.

Everyone of us that's done it in a, in this kind of.

Way in like a conscious application has had the thought of like if you put this in the water and that would change everything or you know when you're like, you know when you're in the middle of it and you're like, if we could just get all of the leaders of the world together and give them that you know you just like it's the solution.

2:46:09

The the the two takeaways I always walk out with are OK.

Every human being needs to be force.

Fed DMT.

You know, the chemtrails need to be made into Bufo cloud Step one, right?

That's the first change.

And then also, I think I'm going to be a facilitator at the end of every ceremony.

2:46:26

You know, I'm giving I'm going to quit my, you know, my career, like I'm supposed to serve this medicine.

And then, you know, by the next morning I'm like, ah, that you know, I don't think that's my role here at the time, you know, at this time.

But, but, but going back to what you're saying, I think what's really important for people to understand is that no matter how deep of an experience you have with psychedelics and you know, how how much you feel God and God's love or how much healing you do.

2:46:52

And again, this is just based on my experience.

Without some sort of philosophical framework to rest those realizations on, it's very difficult to integrate that into your character.

And because I walked in and this isn't a holier than thou thing.

2:47:08

I'm, I'm just speaking truthfully from my experience because I went into these spaces, you know, back in 2000, I think it was 2017, I was 20 years sober.

So it's been a while now and I'm much, much less frequent than I was with with entity engines.

I mean, I have no plans to work with them anytime soon, but I probably will because I know what it feels like to get the call and when it's time and it's the right place and the right person, I'm, I'm down.

2:47:32

But right now, I don't feel like it.

But when I went into that first retreat, which was four nights of ayahuasca, when I got 20 years of personal development work, of spiritual seeking, of meditation, of deep integration of the 12 steps into my life.

2:47:47

Yeah, I still have my issues with relationships and sex and whatnot.

And I was very aware of that, which is why I went there.

But I wasn't going in there without like a life blueprint, a model to follow.

You know, I had a really strong foundation.

And so not only did those changes really last and become integrated into my character, it's that I actually had a really good idea of where I wanted to go in terms of being self-directed.

2:48:15

So, you know, I go into an experience and maybe I have some loose intention or a specific one.

And as you know, like your intentions kind of funny, once you're in the experience, you're, you're working on some totally different thing that you didn't even know needed to be addressed, right, Or even a, you know, positive division or whatever it is.

2:48:32

But it's like every experience I've ever had, because I have a really strong kind of philosophical and psychological understanding of what makes me tick and what makes people tick.

And I, I understand the relationship with ego.

I understand the relationship with the intellect.

When I'm in there, man, I get shit done.

2:48:50

It's like, Oh my God, this is what I've been waiting for.

All I needed was an access point into the subconscious mind and the Super consciousness beyond the subconscious mind.

This is all I needed.

Now.

We're in this space, like the Akashic Records kind of thing.

I described like I'm not in there going, whoa, cool colors, man.

2:49:06

The music's amazing.

I'm in there going.

I want to go talk to the guy that molested me and we're going to fucking sort this out.

I know what I'm doing.

Scary.

Do I really know?

Maybe at a?

Point I need Jesus right But it's like I know what the problem is and I know what the solution is but there's just blocks there's just certain keys to certain doors that I.

2:49:27

I just can't seem to open with any other method, right?

Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah.

So so that's that's Part 1 if I can continue if.

You'll if you'll hear me, I just.

Want I just want to say like so Part 1 is as having some kind of framework.

That you go in there and maybe maybe even a background of work outside of that work that can give you boundaries.

2:49:49

I mean and speaking to you know, your the church.

Community that you.

That you mentioned.

Before, I mean, you got someone that's been going to church for 40 years and knows the Bible back and forth.

I mean, you put them in a deep mushroom experience, they're going to know what to do in there, right?

2:50:05

And, and I've met religious people, you know, devout people that have had.

Those experiences.

And they're experiencing their worldview within the experience.

Like that's the framework that they brought in there.

So that's the context of the experience, right?

So they're, they're taking what would normally in many cases take much longer, if not lifetimes.

2:50:24

And you're just going through a warp speed because you're in a place of no time.

You're in a quantum kind of wormhole in there, right where I mean you can just be tapping into all kinds of things.

I, I had one mushroom experience, man.

I mean, talk about, you know, the kind of the meme 10 years of therapy in one night, dude.

2:50:42

I mean this took me to contacting the souls that I had that I participated in aborting.

Oh wow, brother.

I mean, I never.

Even thought about that.

What?

Yeah.

Thank God I didn't have a kid.

I'm on the other side of that going.

2:50:58

I'm 55.

We were unable to have kids, you know, looking at what led to the.

Nature of those relationships where?

I wasn't capable.

Or willing to have.

That experience of being a father with those particular women, which in my case was quite a few.

2:51:16

Oh wow, I've really mistreated women even more than I ever knew.

Oh that's interesting.

Let me go deeper into why I have 0 respect for myself and my own body.

I'm totally disassociated from my sexuality.

No wonder I can't express it in a healthy way.

Oh wow what's beneath that?

2:51:33

Remember being circumcised?

Holy shit.

I mean it's like can be tried to even put it into words, but I mean this.

Is hours and hours of just like?

Jump deeper and deeper and deeper.

Deeper.

You're not coming to that conclusion very quickly in many other contexts.

2:51:49

I mean, that's a lot of puzzle pieces to try to put together in your normal waking state or journaling or.

Whatever, right, and I emerge out of that situation, I get home and I'm like, we need to have a baby right now.

And I was the guy who was never going to get married, never going to have kids.

I was like, this is my shot like I see what was driving those fears and I and I see how that unresolved trauma was just Oh my God, it's so it's so tragic, like how much it was limiting my capacity for love and intimacy, right?

2:52:22

If I had gone into that that that same night with 0 understanding of any of that, even on an intellectual level, I don't know, I might have had a positive experience.

I might have experienced some healing.

But I have a map walking in there, right?

You might have just been dazzled by the bright colors and lights and yeah, and the music was beautiful and all of that as.

2:52:41

Well, right, it was awesome.

I mean just like for a.

Fun thing to do it was that also, but because I had a map, I just needed someone to, you know, put me on a rocket ship to go across that map and then I know exactly where I want to go.

2:52:56

And, and there were also points at which like I would get the kind of the inspiration to look into something deeper, A deeper level of that that I just described.

And there were certain points at which I had to sit up and take my eye mask off and, like, call someone over to help me because I knew I was about to go into something so deep, even knowing that I needed to ask for help at those intervals.

2:53:19

And also having developed the stamina and the courage of working on myself in sobriety gave me the courage and stamina to go, OK, man, we're about to go gnarly zone here.

Like, this is about to get really deep and dark.

Can I do this?

2:53:34

Yeah, I can do it.

I've been doing this for a long time, you know, So the, the context in the framework, I think is so important.

Now, what I've learned on the other side of that, because all of my experience with psychedelics have been so transformed.

2:53:50

I mean, some of them less so than others, right?

I mean, not every night is that revelatory, but of course, every one of them, I've walked out a better version of myself, you know, to whatever degree, right?

I naively assumed that anyone who's ever taken psychedelics has refined their character, their ethics and their morality in the same way.

2:54:11

And you know, my wife is is as much.

Stronger discernment and intuition than.

I thankfully, I learned a lot from her in that realm.

And she's really the spiritual guardian of our family of, you know, 2 1/2, our little doggie, you know, and I, I really, truly rely on her for protection in the spiritual realms because she sees things so far ahead of me even to this day.

2:54:33

Can relate.

Yeah.

Yeah.

If somebody broke down the door, like OK, I'd be the guy to grab the shotgun and.

Take care of business, not.

Her.

But like, if it comes to someone coming to our door trying to swindle us and trim our trees that don't need it or something, she's like, feels off.

Right.

So I learned.

2:54:50

Yeah, that's how much.

Yeah, exactly.

So I've learned the hard way.

That I think the difference between.

Someone who evolves using psychedelics and someone who doesn't is that they have, I mean, a kind of just some solid character to begin with, but that they have an understanding of themselves that allows them to maximize the potential of those experiences and what they can show you.

2:55:13

And I've been so dismayed and disappointed by just hearing stories or even first hand accounts of people that like have sat with ayahuasca 40 times and I wouldn't trust them to like sweep my driveway, you know what I mean?

Like just highly unethical, predatory, I mean, just in some cases almost demonically possessed people that are serving medicine, not just taking it right.

2:55:37

So I've really had to step up my discernment and acknowledge my naivete and understand that not everyone that works with these medicines is going to have the same kind of refinement process that they've done for me.

Like my conscience has become so sensitive, I can't get away with anything.

2:55:56

You know what I mean?

Like, I just, I know myself.

I have a pretty high degree of self-awareness and self.

Honesty and if.

I'm doing anything funky, it stings real quick, right?

Not everyone has that and not everyone wants that so.

Just because.

2:56:12

You know, you're an Iowa scarer or whatever, doesn't mean that you're trustworthy at all.

And and that is hard for me to understand because I've had experiences like I described with the DMT where I'm in this space going, oh, shit, all is known.

Like, I better really be on my best behavior in this life, man.

2:56:30

Because like, you're not walking out of here with anything hidden.

Yeah, I find it inconceivable that people have had deeper and more frequent experiences than I have in that space, and they're able to be in those spaces and walk out and be unscrupulous, nefarious actors.

2:56:46

Like, how do you do that?

Like, how do you hide from yourself working with really powerful medicine?

I still, I really don't understand.

I don't understand it either.

But I have seen it.

And I was going to say, yeah, there's like this other pitfall.

That I've seen related to that, which is that especially for younger people, there's a OK because there are the predators, and that's the same in the jungle because you go down to the jungle.

2:57:08

In there you have like brujas.

That were served in ayahuasca and trying to steal power and the from other ayahuasca arrows in the jungle.

It's like quite a weird thing going on.

I don't think it's quite what Americans imagine it is.

But there's also this thing that you, this pitfall where it's like you could fall into trying to climb the social ladder inside the medicine scene, like.

2:57:31

Yeah, trying to get all the cool.

Right clothes to wear and get known and be known and then it's like collect them all you got to like do all the different medicines all.

Do you know about next Thursday's ceremony and are you going to go do the Kieran Darrow in two weeks And bro, a bunch of us are going to Tasmania to you know that it's just like you can just fall into that like any scene and you could miss out on a lot of it.

2:57:54

I think, like you said, it's like so much of it is being able to because just one of those experiences is so powerful, like you can take it out.

Bring it.

Home and digest it for quite a long time, but it's very easy for people to get swept up in it.

2:58:09

So I think that that's another thing I would warn people about.

Dude, will you humor me to do something?

Really.

Fun here.

Please, bro, please.

All right, hang on.

Let me let me see if I let me see if I can find this real quick.

Here we go, this page 217.

2:58:27

And there's a lot more to.

It it this isn't a subchapter called when transcendence goes sideways.

Using psychedelics without humility and sound guidance can conceal blind.

Spots instead of.

Exposing them, shadow expressions of the ego often masquerade as relevation as revelation.

2:58:44

Here are some of the traps that can emerge.

Ego reinforcement allowing the.

Medicine to.

Inflate your existing sense of self, convincing you that you're more advanced, more evolved than others or in possession of secret esoteric truths.

A slide into spiritual grandiosity.

Done that one.

2:59:01

Yeah.

I mean, yeah.

I mean, how I know some of this is I've done a bit of it too.

Messiah Complex.

Mistaking and expanded state for proof you're destined to save others or even humanity itself.

Sometimes that conviction is reinforced by channeling entities, aliens speaking in tongues or light languages, or by following other inner voices that mimic authority and elevate you into a special role.

2:59:24

Egoic identity transference, Adopting a more spiritual persona or embracing elaborate cosmic origin stories.

Declaring yourself as a star, seed, Palladian, or other mythic archetype in place of authentic selfhood.

Transcendence as a trap.

2:59:41

Using blissful states as a refuge from grief, anger, or unresolved wounds instead of facing them head on.

Feigning enlightenment.

Feigning enlightenment is easier than doing the work it takes to make it real.

And there's just there's just three more now.

Sorry, five more.

2:59:56

Spiritual bypassing.

Using spiritual language or practices to sidestep conflict, accountability, or the raw pain of being human.

Love and light.

Optimism only serves us when it's authentic and makes room for the dark.

Journey chasing compulsively seeking the next ceremony or peak experience instead of integrating the last delusional thinking or mania.

3:00:19

Losing the capacity to discern between vision and distortion, insight and obception and obsession.

Last, two untrained or predatory facilitators following leaders without skill, ethics, or both, who put their needs or ego above your safety.

Finally, entity attachments.

3:00:36

Not every distortion is psychological.

Some are energetic, unwelcome influences encountered in altar states.

Altered states can linger if not addressed.

Man, I've seen or been part of all of those.

I haven't.

3:00:52

Experienced all of them, but I have experienced half of those and I've seen the other half.

And that's a, you just summed that up very well.

I mean, those are, those are the things to look out for, right?

Because I don't want anyone to hear all this and think like, you know, that it's, it's some kind of like panacea.

3:01:09

It's it's like any tool that has, you know, it's like a firearm.

It's like.

Man, I mean, I get my food with it, but boy, it's a dangerous tool that you can't just leave lying around.

And these tools are so they are the psychologically the most powerful tools on Earth.

3:01:26

And so you have to be so, so conscientious about how you apply them.

Yeah, for sure.

Else I mean, I I just I feel a sense.

Of responsibility, you know, if I'm going to be a.

Proponent.

I also feel that it's it's, you know, ethical to describe some of the risks and I think some of those things too can apply just to people that get sort of caught up in the new age circles and just a lot of.

3:01:53

The sort of.

Fringe spirituality and things like that, right?

I mean, it's like the, the ego is always there waiting in the wings to just adopt whatever identity it can cling to.

And you know, I've had so many experiences like that where I think I'm shedding the old false self.

3:02:11

And then all I do the ego's like, Ah, cool, there's a, there's a vacancy there because he just shed some phony shit.

Let me sneak in with some more socially acceptable and respectable sneaky shit that I can use as a disguise, None of which is the real me, you know, So, you know, I, I don't, you know, write that or share these things from like, Oh, I, I wouldn't do that.

3:02:33

I mean, I've experienced maybe not some of those to the drastic degrees of, you know, thinking I'm a Palladian or whatever, but it's like any one of us can fall prey to the ego if we aren't vigilant.

It's it's, it's just waiting for something to cling to and it will cling to anything.

3:02:48

And it loves things that look and feel safe.

I mean, look at like these grifter pastors and some of the churches going on.

Look at the Charlie Kirk shit like these Christians, you know, talking about the Lord, the Lord, you know, they know all this Bible scripture and you just look at their energy and you're like they come down on like a trapeze with like sparklers and stuff and their leather pants are.

3:03:10

On fire, you're like, yeah, that's, that's just, you know, the Lord, Yeah.

The Lord.

The Lord, like I've never met any truly religious person.

That says the Lord.

Every other sentence just saying, you know, but I haven't known that that many.

So, yeah, we're, we're all, you know, at risk for being kind of taken over by these other influences.

3:03:32

And that's why discernment is so important, man.

Whatever kind of spiritual path we're on, it's really easy to get lost.

And to your point earlier, I don't think a lot of people who are drawn towards spirituality and and.

Really want to seek.

God, realize the price that you have to pay when you truly surrender your life to God.

3:03:51

I mean, you're signing up for a very arduous journey.

It's actually easier to just be an NPC, watch football, drink beer, go to your 9:00 to 5:00 and just tune it all out bro.

I would say 713.

It goes objectively easier to do that than to go I am going to.

3:04:10

Evolve my soul as.

Much as possible in the duration of time in which I am in this body.

That is a difficult path.

Yeah, yeah, there's this, Jesus says.

Enter by the narrow.

Gate for the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction and those who enter by it are many.

3:04:31

Narrow is the gate and heart is the way that leads to life and those who find it are few.

I think that's kind of the thing you're saying.

It's like there's just this is wide easy way that it's so easy to like get into the herd and then you're just going along and it's like everyone's telling you this is the way.

3:04:49

And then that's what I was saying before.

You can get to your 50s, sixties and you're like, oh man, Dang, you know, And then the way.

And what's interesting too, I often with scripture, I'm really into the original language, like what was actually being said.

And this idea of the narrow way is actually a way that it's referring to like the pressing, like you press the oil out of olives.

3:05:09

So it's like you're being constantly sneezed by that narrow way, you know, So it's not just uphill and narrow.

And arduous, but it's.

Like pressing in on you, it's not comfortable.

And that's the thing.

And I'm glad you say that because like that's the thing that is hard about the new age.

3:05:26

In the new age, it's all positive, right?

It's like all goodness.

It's like you just like, Oh no, you just don't let any of that negativity in.

Nothing bad ever.

It's like it's actually pretty difficult, like everything else that you want to accomplish.

It's hard and and it's hard, like you said, it's arduous, but it's also it's kind of like with food.

3:05:44

It's like if I want, look, when I sit down to a real meal of well grown, healthy food, that meal nourishes me so deeply, but it's harder to get.

It's way easier to get a junk food meal.

But I walk away, I feel like I have nothing, you know, So it's like that.

3:06:01

It's like it's a much harder, more arduous path, but it satisfies the soul in that easy path.

It's so empty and shallow that it doesn't satisfy.

And so it's it's easy, but like things that are easy rarely yield the results we're really looking for.

3:06:17

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I think the good news with that, with that fact is that.

You know, if you look at my hand on a scale, right?

So I start out way down here as a, as an addict, you know, at the end of his rope.

And then I slowly start to climb.

And then there's big dips, right?

3:06:34

Big dips.

But if you zoom out, the trajectory of joy and the diminishment of suffering gets higher, right?

It's like, yeah, my overall quality of life is better than it's ever been.

Yet at the same time, the things I struggle with now are just as hard subjectively as the things I used to struggle with.

3:06:54

You know what I mean?

It's just I'm suffering less, but I'm definitely not living in a love and light like everything's bliss grand rising brother.

Like I'm not, I'm I'm not there.

I mean, I wake up days and I'm like OK, cool.

This morning I got up.

3:07:09

I was like, I don't.

Know I feel kind of weird.

I got to do a podcast with Daniel, like I got to get my head together.

I'm not waking up just feeling totally elated.

But my version of like, I'm a little off this morning is light years ahead where it was, yeah, where it was like suicidal ideation and just laying in.

3:07:27

Bed all day.

Smoking cigarettes or whatever, you know, So there there is hope and there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

But yeah, I, I, I don't, I didn't have any idea when I really started committing myself to spirituality that it was going to be as hard as it is.

I think that's a pretty rude awakening for many of us.

3:07:45

Your book.

One of the things I noticed is that between.

The narratives you're you really do give lessons, like at the end of each chapter, you're sort of like giving some real takeaways.

Yeah.

And I was wondering if you could kind of maybe like tie a bow on all this with some of.

3:08:02

That like what are some of the big.

Takeaways that people can expect to get from it and like, then, you know, ultimately, what are some of the big takeaways that maybe we haven't covered so far in this conversation?

Yeah.

Well, the, you know, the framework of the book has three layers.

So there's tales.

Teachings and practices.

3:08:19

So I thought, you know, I have a pretty interesting story objectively.

I mean, I've had a fairly wildlife and could probably entertain and intrigue a few readers that have just maybe not had the kind of experiences I've had.

But I'm not a celebrity.

So like, how many people are really interested in that?

3:08:36

You know, it's like, I'm not going to write a biography, right?

It's like everyone knows who I am.

But I coming, Luke.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

But I I knew going into that.

The value of these stories.

Would be the wisdom that I've been able to derive from having lived those stories, right?

3:08:53

And that's where the teachings come in.

So I might tell a story about being molested.

And then that's a great segue into how you can practice forgiveness.

And then that will be followed by what are called intermission exercises.

No T intermission.

So they're invitations for the reader to reflect in a more universal way.

3:09:13

Maybe they weren't molested and don't have to forgive the the the you know, the perpetrator, but they have a resentment toward their boss because they didn't get promoted.

So all of the intermission exercises are really journal prompts or self inquiry practices to help the reader find similar experiences in their own life and then apply the teachings that they've just read to whatever it is that they're going through.

3:09:38

And then also in some cases there are take away practices like, hey, this week, try to do this thing instead of the other thing and report back.

So it's a great way to kind of keep the pace of the book up.

And I don't want to be a preacher, you know, I'm not.

I'm just, you're so humble and vulnerable that you're certainly not coming across like I'm just.

3:09:58

Now, you know.

Yeah.

Thank you.

I mean, being a former addict, I mean, there's something I learned.

And you know.

And 12 step.

Membership.

We don't like to be told what to do at all.

And I understand the nature of defiance and the nature of the defensiveness of the ego.

3:10:13

And so I really wanted to find a way to reach the reader's heart by saying like, hey, this is my story.

This is what I've learned from it.

Let's go into your story, like let's do this together and, and have kind of a shared experience, even though physically it's one sided, right?

So that was the idea there.

3:10:29

So it's like if I'm, you know, looking at the plant medicine kind of warning section about responsibility and integration and so on, they'll be prompts in there that are applicable to people, whether or not they've ever taken a psychedelic or not.

It's like, have you joined a group that's asking you to, you know, turn over your discernment or have you been LED into some delusional kind of belief system that's not serving you it, etcetera.

3:10:56

Right.

So it's, it's a way of kind of making the teachings and the stories applicable to as many people as possible because we're just talking about the human condition.

My book just happens to be about my experience of the human condition.

But we're all struggling with the same thing, which is a sense of feeling alone, cut off from life at different times and, and, and also just falling for the illusion that we live in a world of separation when it's just not true.

3:11:24

So the book is really about identifying what is blocking us from perceiving reality as it is, which is that everything is one thing and it's called consciousness.

And if we feel a part of consciousness, but we're really not, what is it that we're thinking, doing, feeling, believing that is keeping that illusion alive?

3:11:43

And how can we disrupt those patterns so that we can actually be in reality?

And I can experience you, Daniel, as a part of me instead of some separate entity that exists over in Maine, You know?

Because what I want is I want to be connected to you.

I resonate with you.

3:11:59

I want intimacy, I want closeness, I want trust, I want brotherhood, camaraderie.

I want mutual support.

I want reciprocity.

I want to help each other, but if I'm caught in this sense of separation, that is impossible, you know, whether it's shame or insecurity or grandiosity, ego, whatever, you know, it could be the inferiority or superiority side, all that bullshit.

3:12:22

Let's put it on the table.

Let's analyze it, Let's see what applies for you.

And let's understand that there are practices and tools that you can use to bring yourself back into actual reality.

And in reality, it's pretty damn connected.

Yeah, yeah, man, it is really relatable even though it's.

3:12:42

It is for the average person, kind of a wild story.

And I think that for me, one of the things I like is those pieces that you're talking about the intermission piece.

And what would you, what did you call the other piece, the in between?

Well, there's tales, teachings and practices and the practices are the intermissions.

3:12:59

Yeah.

All right, so the teachings and practices, because for me, I'm not prone to read a memoir.

Because I'm so I'm so driven towards like what, what can I learn?

Why I'm after knowledge, I'm after the next step.

So, so I like, but I, but it's the kind of thing that's like I'm reading a novel right now.

3:13:15

Again, I'm not prone to reading novels.

My wife got me to read, read this book.

I'm reading Theo of Gold and it's quite beautiful, but I'm not prone to.

So when I do, I'm always like really grateful to.

It's like, this is really good.

So I really like, yeah, the humanness, the vulnerability, But I like that, that part of me that's looking for lessons that you provide them in such a clear way.

3:13:33

So I, I think it's just a a quite an achievement, man.

I'm really excited for you.

Yeah, I'm really excited for you.

It's just been cool to watch the whole trajectory and I it's cool where you've ended up.

That's what's so cool.

You know, I like that it started off like a physical thing and here you are these years later, 10 years later, I guess, and it's like a really a spiritual thing.

3:13:56

And I know that that's been your journey all along, but I mean, to watch your public facing side, I feel like this, this is the beginning of a new era for you publicly, which is just.

Yeah, it's really cool to see.

Yeah.

And that that was my intention too, because I realized that.

3:14:14

I've been really playing it safe.

Yeah, right.

It's like I've been.

Able to create a personal.

Brand and and be helpful to.

People to be of.

Service and I think the work I do is it has a positive impact on the people that interact with it right and so I could easily just rest on that and be like Mr. Biohacker guy and just chill and what most people do dude, that's what most people do and then you're like OK if you.

3:14:36

If you have taken your own advice, then you should be at the end of that.

And that means a whole new plat, a whole new plane should be opening up before you.

And I've seen a lot of people just get stuck in their own bullshit.

Like they just, they create their thing.

3:14:52

And then that's like, it's like being a big fish in a small pond where it's like, oh, if I stay in my realm of the stuff that I've talked about for 10 years, I'm the master of it.

And then that's that ego thing, you know, And it's like to step out into a new place and not leave that behind.

3:15:07

Like it's not important.

It's just like, hey, you've done that.

It's still there for all the people that need to go on that journey because they do.

But I, I'm always impressed when somebody's willing to step out into a new journey and become the small fish in the big pond again.

3:15:25

Like that's, that's cool.

That's a great way to put it.

That's exactly how it feels too.

Because now I'm, you know, I.

Put so much love and soul into this book.

It's like, oh God, I, I, I guess I really wasn't thinking about now there's like the vulnerability and the insecurities around trying to promote it, right?

3:15:42

I'm pitching myself on huge podcasts and events and it was like, I hate this part, but I, I did it to myself.

I'm the one that chose I, I kind of want to change lanes and really share my, my true passion and my true gifts.

I mean, really, Daniel, I'm a healer dude and I hate using that word, but Amen.

3:15:58

I just know that that's what I am.

I'm not a body worker, but.

I understand.

That a healing presence works through me and moves through me and it's something I've really stifled for a long time.

And it's it's like just when I.

3:16:14

Was it's very similar to the ways in which I used to stifle my love.

And I, I wasn't available to that in relationships, you know, and it started to break my heart.

It's just like, Oh my God, just the withholding.

It's just so confining.

That constriction just really starts to take a toll after a while.

And it's been the same way with my work of just kind of playing it safe and easy and my friends know what I'm about.

3:16:34

But you know, I, I've never publicly called myself a spiritual teacher or healer or something like that because it just felt cringe to me, Not because it's not true, but just because of my own insecurities and self doubt, you know, So writing this book and now promoting it is really me putting my money where my mouth is, you know, it's like, and continuing your work though, like the part that's for you to do right.

3:16:57

It's like the part that's a.

Refining fire for yourself, right?

Totally.

Yeah.

And, and you've been a big inspiration in that, too.

Man, I know I've told you this before, but.

You know, I used to go see you speak at these big health conferences with David Wolfe, the longevity now conferences, me and my buddies.

3:17:12

You were like our favorite speaker, you know, and then you'd you'd go to your Sirth rival booth.

And by the way, I want to give a shout out like for anyone listening, you might have heard Daniels plugs for his Sirth rival.

You're like such a non aggressive marketer.

I think at times you've done yourself a disservice.

Your products are so bad ass and I've been using them for years, especially the pine pollen and the colostrum.

3:17:34

Can't Yeah, look at my pine ball right here.

That that product for me.

Didn't become important to me till the last couple years, where now it's like I really rely on that product.

Your life demands testosterone.

Yeah, yeah.

But yeah.

3:17:49

So we'd see you speak and then.

You'd go to your booth and I remember with my buddy Ellie.

I'd be like, oh, there's.

Daniel and I'd be like all scared to come up and say hi and ask you for a picture.

I mean, you were like a celebrity to me, you know, and and you were so cool.

And I remember at one point, like, like we got invited to one of your after parties and I was like, Oh my God, dude, we're going to Daniel's party, you know, so excited.

3:18:07

And then and we got a little more friendly over the years.

And yeah, it's just cool.

You know, it's, it's neat to go full circle and just have someone who, you know, you look up to and then have that same person be so supportive and encouraging.

It really means a lot to me.

Wow.

3:18:22

There's not a lot of people who can go all the places that I want to go.

Intellectually or in a conversation, but also not just intellectually because of the heart of the spirit of the mind, of the body.

It's like it's quite a pleasure to have a friend like you because it's not possible for me to like, exhaust where you can go.

3:18:41

It's like how you can kind of go all over the place too.

And people like that are rare.

So it's always a pleasure to talk to you.

And we don't get to talk that much, but when we do, it's always, like, really satisfying for me.

Yeah.

Well, me too.

I feel like you know my my desire to catch up with you has been somewhat.

Fulfilled by this conversation.

3:18:58

Like there's probably a few world events and things that we might go deeper into.

On a first line for.

Personal level, but yeah, it's just it's always great to talk to you.

It really is.

So fulfilling.

For me and same same thing for me, man, it's just you have certain people that you just vibe with and like you said, you, you just understand the way the other person thinks and feels.

3:19:18

I mean, that's why I think I've listened to every podcast you've ever done.

I'm always so honoured when you tell tell me you've listened to one of my shows.

I'm like still listening.

I mean, even though even.

The wild fed one, I'm not a hunter Fisher guy, but it's like you're just.

I don't know, the way you think is just so fascinating and expansive for me.

3:19:34

I pretty much listen to even every one of those, you know, when you're talking about like grasshopper hunting or something.

Like I was like, today I'm interviewing the the leading duck biologist in Minnesota.

Exactly.

I'm like, I'm probably never going to get into that, but I just love the questions you ask and just you know how?

3:19:50

Your how your mind and and spirit work.

So I'm by the way, I'm so stoked you start a new podcast because I often run out.

I'm just like, I don't know.

So I'm, I'm like glued.

I've listened to every one of your episodes thus far.

I won't listen to this one because it's just more to find.

3:20:06

I never listened to my podcast.

I'm too critical.

I'm too critical of myself.

Yeah, I got to learn how to overcome that.

It's also a lot of time.

It's like I'm not spending two hours listening to myself.

What are you, 100%?

Yeah, but I'm just, I'm so stoked that you're, you know, you've kind of come into your next.

3:20:22

Phase of evolution and I remember a couple years ago you were like, yeah, I'm kind of, you know, they're kind of hitting the end of the runway with this particular niche with the wild fed thing and I want to put myself out there and and cover more a broad spectrum of topics and you know, kind of re emerge as Vitalis 2.0.

3:20:38

So I'm super stoked and you know, just happy to hear your content and to support you and just get back connected.

It's really cool.

Thank you, bro.

I'm I'm loving it, to be honest.

It's it's been a lot of fun.

Hey, where do people get where do you?

Send people for the book.

The book can be found with right now, with some incredible bonuses at.

3:20:56

Luke no, that's my website.

A horse named lonesome.com is where you can find the book and we're in pre sale right now.

It comes out November 17th and as part of the presale bonus for anyone that doesn't know if you're an author or the only sales that really mean anything or during the presale period when before the book comes out.

3:21:14

So I have a, one of the perks is a book club where I'm going to be meeting with people once a month for the next four months and doing a Q&A and going over excerpts from the book and just kind of getting into the depths of it kind of like we did here when I read a little bit of that cool, that kind of thing.

3:21:30

So I'm really excited to actually connect with people who are about to get the book or already have it because it's been such an I've been just insulated in my own little world.

I'm just like, Oh my God, I need to share about this and talk about this with other people and actually listen for, you know, for now because I've done so much talking in the book.

3:21:48

So I'm really excited about that.

So, yeah, A Horse Named lonesome.com is where you can buy the book and, you know, kind of get a, get the gist of what it's all about and get those bonuses if you buy it before the published date.

A Horse Named lonesome.com.

Luke, sorry.

Thanks for being on the show man.

3:22:04

Yeah.

Thank you brother.