Transcript: Grounded in Chaos — Daniele Bolelli #016

0:01

There's never been a moment like this before.

Is this a unique moment in human history, or does this look to you like this kind of thing we've seen before?

There has never been a time in human history with such a small percentage of the population participate in food production, but that's the the trade off of so much of modern civilization.

0:21

We'll give you a more stable but crappier version of what used to get in the past.

You know, having a code to live by.

What's myco for me and how I want to live and how's it going to benefit me if people are listening to this, thinking about that for themselves?

Like one of the things that's so important to build in is that kind of service to others.

0:38

That's one of the things that we're sorely lacking in the community peace, is that we're not really there for each other the way that we could be.

Once you are you're on your values, it shouldn't really be much effort to live up to them, because if you really care for them, if you really think that's the best way of living, how hard is that?

1:02

My guest today is Danielle Bolelli, a writer, martial artist, university professor, and the voice behind the hit podcast History on Fire and the Drunken Taoist.

Born in Italy and based in Los Angeles, Danielle brings a unique blend of Eastern philosophy, historical grit, and deep human insight to everything.

1:22

He touches He's the author of several books, including Not Afraid and Create Your Own Religion.

He's known for turning complex history into gripping cinematic stories.

Danielle, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having me.

1:38

Oh, so glad to have you.

And I'm sure you hear this all the time, but just before you came in, my producer and I were saying that it's just you have the funnest name to say.

It's the lyrical.

It's the lyrical lilt of it, the the rhyming of it.

But I kind of it made me wonder like if having a fun name has led to any kind of like a charmed life at any level, or do you think it's not had an impact?

2:02

No, I mean, I think in US especially, nobody has that idea how to pronounce it.

So I get called anything in the book and it's fine.

It's like a you whatever stupidity.

As long as no people are talking to me, that's fine.

I regularly get mail from, I don't know, some random companies that are trying to pitch me saying for Miss Danielle Bolelli because of course, in English they figure that if yeah, at the end of Danielle, you must be a woman and you just forgot to add an L in there or something.

2:32

So sure, it's pretty funny.

My wife is from, you know, Quebec, so it's like French speaking part of Canada.

So whenever I'm up there, I'm Danielle, which I always find so much more, you know, attractive.

But down here, it's hard to get anyone to even say my full name.

2:47

They all all want to call me Dan for whatever reason.

Hey I.

I have this ongoing conversation with my wife and with a lot of my friends, and we're constantly discussing whether or not we're in a unique historical moment.

And the thing I have wanted to ask you the most 'cause I, I'm, I'm on the side of arguing for, hey, there's never been a moment like this before.

3:11

And I get a lot of pushback about that, but I have like reasons that I think it is a kind of a unique moment.

And I'm, I think you're so qualified to handle that question.

So it's something I'd love to chat with you about today.

How are you looking at this moment?

And is this a unique, unique moment in human history, or does this look to you like this kind of thing we've seen before?

3:31

No, I mean, I think it is.

It's I think it's the only part where I would agree with.

We have seen before is when people are like, oh, right now is people always tend to hype the moment they are in as either the worst or the best or something like that.

3:47

And I'm like, you know, there have been horrible things happening throughout human history, in many cases, quasi extinction level threatening type of stuff.

So that part is not unique.

The specific challenges that we face are extremely unique because just start with one factor above all.

4:08

I mean, two factors above all, actually.

One would be technology that just the we have never invented a technology that can make human beings obsolete.

And now between AI and robotics is definitely going in that direction.

So it's that's a first.

4:24

There's never been anything like that in human history.

And also I think the other part is environmental crisis.

You know, the kind of global challenges we are facing.

Don't get me wrong, there has been major environmental crisis in the history of the world before known man made in the past, whereas now there's definitely a man made factor.

4:48

But still there have been crisis.

The current one it's it's tricky because we have built such a complex civilization and it's clearly a complex system that it's highly each part is heavily dependent on another.

Then some major collapse caused by environmental factor wouldn't be a localized collapse as it often was in the past where you have an area of the world that gets is severely under pressure while others aren't.

5:18

Right now we would look like if one area goes under, pretty much everything goes under because it's so heavily intertwined, our global economy and everything else.

And also, it's not like you could go back to say, OK, we can rewind the clock and leave like we did at 200 years ago.

5:37

We don't have the environment for it.

We have too many people for it.

We don't have the knowledge for it because once you break away from a certain mode of living, so much of that knowledge is lost.

So those, all of those things are, are very unique in history.

5:54

I mean, if you just think about all the inventions, not of the last thousand or just the last 100 under 50 years, all the technological things that have radically changed our lives.

I mean, take somebody from the beginning of the 1800s, plop them, time travel them to today.

6:14

You have no idea what they are looking at.

Take somebody from the 1800s and then travel them to the 1300s and they'd be like, yeah, I get it, you know, and vice versa.

Somebody from the 1300s into the 1800s would have a little bit of a shock, but they would get adjusted pretty quick.

6:32

So the speed of change in the last couple of centuries, and I say couple of centuries, but of course in the last four or five packets even more so has been insane.

Yeah, I I was wondering too, because something I was thinking about is how in the past you'd have urban centers where maybe people in the urban centers would not anymore have a memory of how to live on in the countryside.

6:56

But then you could go out to the countryside where people still had those skills intact.

Has there ever been a moment like this where kind of nobody remembers anymore?

I mean, of course we could go to isolated pockets of New Guinea or the Amazon, but it's like nobody knows anymore unless it's been their hobby as like a Bush crafter or something like that, how to live without all of this technology.

7:18

I mean, just to give ammunition to your discussion with friends and family, there has never been a time in human history with such a small percentage of the population participate in food production.

You know, there's never been, you know, it's like if you look at in the past there, the number of people were directly involved in food production was always infinitely high, higher than it is now.

7:44

Now it's like a dot compared to the population.

Whereas before, I mean, even if you look not again, not even a million years ago, if you look at the beginning of the 1800s, US, not even worldwide by US alone, the overwhelming majority of the population lived as farmers, lived on a farm, either isolated or in a small town of less than 5000 people.

8:08

That was the end.

Most of the food production took place at home.

Most of the clothing you made was made at all my most of you know.

So it was a a way of living that has basically nothing to do with the way 90 plus percent of the population Live Today.

8:27

When you're looking at different moments through history that are inflection points, how often does food, food supply and things like famine, how often have they played a really significant role in the way events events unfold?

And because, because that's this other area where I think for some of us, it's like, I'm, I'm just a food person, you know, most of my works been in food nutrition.

8:49

I did a wild food TV show for a long time.

So I have this.

I can't help but be like watching the, the flow of, of fertilizer, what's happening with US farmland.

And I get this like cringy feeling about the food supply, but then around us, everybody's lived in a glut of calories like that's never really existed before.

9:09

And so there's this sense of like, what do you mean?

How could it ever change?

And I'm kind of curious, like historically, how common is famine and, and, you know, food shortage?

I mean, it definitely it happened in a lot of places around the world.

It happened fairly often.

9:24

It happened clearly in some segments of society getting hit harder than others, but that's the the trade off of so much of modern civilization.

You know, we'll will give you a more stable but crappier version of what you used to get in the past.

9:42

So you get more security, but lower quality type of thing.

Yeah.

I mean, if you think about it, even just agriculture as a whole has been more more security and lower quality compared to hunting and gathering type of food.

9:58

Of course, if you are the one whose kids are starving, more security is fine.

You take lower quality and it's no problem, you know, But clearly, yeah, today we leave.

I mean, it's funny that you mentioned the food thing because I was just, I was, I was just back in Italy for a couple of months and when I so two months was, you know, longer than I'm used to.

10:19

And I come back and, you know, I went out to eat something and I was like, I took one bite and I wanted to cry.

I was like, what the hell is this?

Because it's like.

When you were back, you're saying in the States?

When I'm, when I'm back in the States, Yeah, because I was like, doesn't taste like anything, you know, what the hell is this?

10:40

And I had like these meals in Italy.

Not fancy stuff, not literally just three leaves of salad, a tomato, a piece of cheese.

And I was in heaven.

You know, I was like, this tastes so good.

And and you know, it's not that you can't.

10:56

I mean, of course, even in US you can find some stuff that's really good, mostly if you grow it yourself.

And but most of the time the quality is just, I mean, for people who don't know the difference is like once you try one thing, this doesn't even look like food anymore.

11:13

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11:30

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11:53

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12:09

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12:30

Yeah, yeah.

It's almost like here in the States, like the facsimile of food where it it has the, and the, it's, it's so similar to like, let's say maybe you're in LA and you see like the, the guy who's on testosterone and all the peptides and he just looks like, you know, like a superhuman or the woman with the boob job in the lips and the injections in the Botox.

12:51

And it's like, we've done that to our food.

It has the appearance of bigger, better, brighter, flashier.

And then you taste it and there's no substance.

And it's like, that's almost a great way to sum up US culture today.

It's like a facsimile of the real thing.

I've heard, you know, I haven't been to Italy, but all my friends who go say, yeah, that part of it is that the soil there produces food that you just can't really replicate anywhere else in the world.

13:14

You agree?

There's that for sure.

You know, specific climatic condition.

I mean, to the point where people are like, no, the pizza from the one spot is different from the 100 miles away because the mineral composition of the water, it's like it gets super nerdy.

13:33

But I'm sure some of it is true.

And and also I think is like the kind of stuff that is or is not allowed in food makes a difference because the mass use of pesticide, the way it's done here.

And again, I don't know the details because I haven't studied it, so I don't know.

13:50

But I do know that the net result is very different.

And you know, there are certain things like mass use of roundup is not as you know, there are certain things that are a thing in US that are not a thing in other places.

Yeah.

And that's like we have because I, because I grew up.

14:08

I was born in 78.

I grew up during the era where there was no food culture in the United States except out-of-the-box.

Everything just was hyper industrially processed.

And now I always tease the young kids growing up because they're they've grown up during a food renaissance in the United States.

14:24

Everything's gone farm to table, which is amazing.

You know, it's kind of like part of the early wave of that, you know, trying to bring that in.

And so it's very exciting to see it.

But then they don't understand that there's a break in the food lineage.

And I'm kind of curious your perspective coming from Italy about not just in food, but in so many things where people in the US have like a almost like a the mentality of orphans who have we, very few of us could really trace our lineages back to the old world or to any kind of his lineage that we have into the past.

14:56

Whereas I would imagine in Italy, there's a sense of continuity that stretches back some distance.

And I'm kind of curious if you can comment on that because I feel like that's a major part of historicity in generally speaking is like having continuity.

Yeah.

And I think there's there's a bit of a trade off there because there's both the advantages and the disadvantages of that because on one end, you know, you're clearly missing something.

15:22

There's a connection with the past, there's a history, there are traditions that are passed along that you know, there's a value in that 100%.

There is also something where places with a lot of history sometime tend to stifle innovation because there is the idea of the way we have always done things.

15:41

So don't mess with it, which I understand because if you have a good thing going, you don't want to experiment away from it.

But at the same time, life inevitably evolves and changes and it's whether it evolves or the better or worse, that's a whole different discussion.

15:57

But change is kind of inevitable.

So the one good aspect of US in that scenario is that while it's lacking a lot of roots, sometime there's something even good about that in being able to innovate, experiment, try things without all the weight of a bunch.

16:17

Like I always said, one of because I mean, I love Italy so great in so many ways.

But one of the reason why I moved to US, despite the fact that I do find a zillion thing about American cultural problematic is the fact that in Italy, if you sit around with people and throw out an idea that you have, more likely than not you're going to have tenderity.

16:41

Smart people who reply on why it can't be done and give you really sophisticated argument for why probably not in US there tend to be much more of a dam enthusiasm for things of like, yeah, let's try let's which I tend to like them enthusiasm over smart cynicism any day of the week.

17:05

You know, it's like, at least there's a room to try things.

Of course, some of these experiment are terrible and one should not try them.

And there are things that you go like, wow, maybe being a little more tied to a tradition would have been better, but also there's something liberating in that.

17:24

And so so I do see it as plus and minuses each way, you know?

Wow, It's a really useful take because I do appreciate.

Yeah, I think I'm lamenting a little bit the, the loss of continuity because I see some of the downsides of it.

17:39

But you're right, because I, I, you know, that American rebel spirit too, allows you to innovate in any way you want and kind of go your own way.

Which actually brings me to something I wanted to talk to you about as well, because I've seen sort of some of your takes on religion and, and generally speaking, and something I was reading recently, but honestly, it was just asking Google.

17:59

I was saying like, hey, how how much of a person in the ancient world's life was how much of the pie chart of a person's day or year was dedicated to religion?

And it was like 20% roughly something like that.

And today we've here in the West especially been secularized to the point that, you know, for some people, it's like no part of the day.

18:18

And in that way, we've become really untethered in a sense, and a lot of really wild things have gone down that probably would never have gone down if we had still had some sense of, of relationship to the ineffable in a way that was ritualized or ceremonial in some way.

18:36

And I would just love to like open the space up to you for your perspective on that because it seems like sort of a similar thing to what we were just talking about, but in a different area of life.

It's true because again, there's positive and negatives that go with that.

I think like part of it seemed almost impossible to separate practices of religion in the past from community.

19:00

You know, part of the, it wasn't like, oh, what you do in the privacy of your home.

I mean, there was that too, but he was primarily, they're usually community driven ritual and ceremonies and things that bring the community together for something.

I think the the positive and negative of that is that on one end, anything that brings community together, I mean, in US is such a foreign concept.

19:25

That's like community.

What are we even talking about?

You know, it's like it's I mean, that is a that's a downside of US for real.

Where you see the extreme lack of social life in so much of US, where you know, your friends are P Like when I remember last year when I was talking with a friend from Italy and he was like, oh, you have a bunch of friends in US.

19:48

I'm like, yeah, yeah, a lot of people like and are like, so you guys get together like 3-4 times a week to hang out and do things.

I'm like, no, it's more like 3-4 times a year or something.

And he was like, OK, so you don't have friends, you have acquaintances.

20:04

They are friendly, you know, and I was like, OK, I see that the definition is a little different there.

You know it's the.

And I think so in the to stick to the religion question, I think is there's an element when certain ceremonies, tradition bring the community together and also bring the individual in contact with something larger than themselves and sort of tackle the mystery.

20:32

It's really cool and it's necessary and it's important and is a beautiful thing.

Of course, the extremely dark side of it is when religion becomes even further organized and dogmatic.

And now you know, you need to believe everything that everyone in the village believes or will burn you on the state kind of thing.

20:51

And it's and it becomes this thing that's squashes even the individual, even individual spirituality get squashed in the name of the collective dogma.

And that's dark as hell.

I mean, that's so it's like to me, when thinking about the good side of what you're describing, I think you have to almost pre date organize religion in the modern sense and you go to more tribal spiritual traditions.

21:20

You know, you see the way a tribe operates, the ceremony, the sinks.

There's usually there's more flexibility because it's not written in stone.

You don't have, you know, the I'm really talking 3 state society because one would say, oh, what about, I don't know, the Mashika.

21:39

They did the horrible things with human sacrifice and.

All those are city states though.

Those are civilization.

That has nothing to do with what I'm told.

I'm talking about the state.

And don't get me wrong, it's not that those.

Gathering people you're talking about or or maybe hunter gatherer agrarians?

21:57

Yeah, animistic, shamanic tradition, which even there you can find some dark stuff happening.

But generally speaking, you find there's a little more flexibility, there's a little more mixing of community needs, but also individual needs and not necessarily being so clashy with one another.

22:21

And you find ultimately, I think what I find honest about that type of approach to spirituality is that it kind of acknowledges that you don't know everything you know.

It kind of acknowledges that your way of doing thing is a way of doing thing is not the way of doing things.

22:39

I love like in Lakota language, they have this idea like to speak of Wakan Tanka, you know, like these great sacred mystery.

And it's it's a beautiful concept because you're saying it's not an atheist denial that there's something bigger than humans.

22:55

But he's saying you can sniff it.

You can get a glimpse of it, but that's all you can do is so much bigger than what the human mind can comprehend.

So what does that mean?

It means that if I run into somebody was a radically different viewpoint from mine doesn't necessarily mean we're in competition.

23:15

It may mean that they have they are picking on something else that my comprehension of this big mystery doesn't leave you know I and So what you do you try it.

You try out their ceremonies, you try out their ideas.

If they work, you add them to your own.

23:30

If you don't, you leave them.

No big deal either way.

Whereas in the traditional approach of most organized religion of we have the way, the moment you run into somebody who believes something different, you already know they are wrong.

23:47

Because if you have the truth and there's only one truth and you are different, while automatically by the full, that must mean you're wrong.

Which of course increases the odds of conflict and is not the most open minded approach in the world and all of that.

So that's kind of what if we're going to go to the more desirable aspect of a return of more spiritual practices.

24:08

I think you would be the more as open minded as possible, one that allow you to borrow from different directions and so on.

Yeah, your own path has kind of LED you, if I understand it, to Taoism.

Is that right?

And, and it would it be fair to, I was think of Taoism as like kind of like a sophisticated person's animism in a sense, or like a civilized animism of some kind.

24:33

But correct me if that comes out wrong.

I'd love to get your take on it.

No, 100% true.

I mean, that's the, that's exactly what's happening.

That's the truth of what it is.

You know, so much of Taoism is enemies.

I mean, also there's kind of like a complicated history, right?

24:50

Because with Taoism, some of it is it's born primarily as it may have been before it was modified more spiritual beliefs.

Then it came more just more as a philosophy.

And then it becomes tied to all the animistic practices that were common in China at the time, much like over Fuchsianism did, much like pretty much anything that pops up in China would be tied to the animistic practices that existed.

25:16

So it's definitely in the case of Taoism even more so because is whereas Confucianism is a system of ethics that doesn't necessarily have a whole lot on the more spiritual side of things.

25:33

They put the two together, but it's not a natural fit in Taoism.

It makes more sense because it is speaking about about things that for lack of a better term, many people who therefore to a spirit.

Well, you know, he's talking about a connection which nature is talking about these greater forces out there.

25:49

He's talking about he's not necessarily talking about the gods in specific or but he's talking about.

It is 100% born from a shamanic worldview.

For fun, has China ever had like in the in the West?

26:06

We have, especially because there's such a monotheistic tradition and you know, in the Levant as well, where you have this sense of God as God.

In the East, I get this sense that it's more philosophical.

Not necessarily atheist, but more philosophical.

Have they has there?

26:22

Been a sense of a God, creator God in Chinese religion in the past, you know, Or has it always leaned towards philosophical views?

I mean, there's philosophical, there's definitely a belief in spirits, body spirits, plural.

26:40

And so that makes a difference already because any God in the more powerful, whatever God you can think of is one of many, you know, even in any kind of system that I guess Westerners would characterize as polytheistic.

26:56

The whole point is, I mean, even think about Greco, Roman word, right?

Zeus is the big guy, but it's still one guy among a whole bunch, you know, so that changes the dynamics a little bit is it's kind of like Hinduism, right?

You have a zillion gods, but because you have a zillion and no one, that changes the dynamics again in in most Chinese folks, religion, you have a, it's a lot of ancestral spirits and human beings that became deified and spirits of nature.

27:28

There's everything and it's opposite under that cover, you know?

Yeah.

And I am actually want to drill down on that piece about the Greco Roman stuff for a minute, because a lot of my friends, you know, who get into Greco Roman philosophy, I think they have this sense that that world was like a because of the philosophy that came out of it, that it was a secular world.

27:49

And it's like, no man.

It's like temples everywhere.

There's sacrifices going on.

It's constant ritual.

There's, if I understand it, there's cult prostitution.

There's all these kind of like wild things going on.

How, how much how philosophical were they versus how religious were they?

28:07

You know, is it 5050?

Is it one or the other like and could for, for somebody who's listening to this, who thinks of that world as being, you know, I was dominated by philosophy.

Could you kind of like help expound on that a little bit?

I think it's hard to tell because it's hard to tell because what people say or people do are not necessarily the same thing.

28:25

And so in some cases, I understand where your friends are coming from because there is an element where at some points in history, particularly in the history of the Roman Empire, it seemed like the practices of certain religion was becoming more, I guess we're supposed to do it kind of thing, but the world view would become more and more secular.

28:46

But that's not for everybody.

B.

It's hard to pinpoint at what point because in some cases, if you do keep the external practices, how exactly do we know what people were thinking, how much they care for it, how much, how big or not was a deal to their day-to-day life?

29:03

I mean, it's the same thing kind of like if you look at Shinto in Japan, are most people religious or not?

It's complicated, right?

Because most Japanese people at one point or another will practice certain into ceremonies, but in their day-to-day world view, how much of that is a religion?

29:26

It's tricky, you know.

It's like going to church on Easter or something once a year.

Maybe influence their world view about nature or something to some degree.

But exactly where do you draw the line between, yes, these people are clearly religious versus there's a Gray zone or no, no, really it, it gets more complicated.

29:47

Like, you know, to make it simple, I guess in the old great Roman word, you definitely didn't have many people who openly come out and say, I believe in no gods.

That wasn't really much of a thing.

You know, that was rare.

Right.

So in other words, if he isn't like a relatively new, yeah, out of elite philosophical circles, relatively new thing?

30:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure.

31:19

What do you think the outcome of that is like will be, you know, like, because again, when we were talking before about things that you could look at as historical cycles versus things that have never really happened before.

So to have such a rapid transition from, you know, a whole history of religious worldview to one that like we have today.

31:42

That's such a secular worldview where science has come to replace religion.

But it, it has not replaced that 20% piece we were talking about before that gave people community meaning, some cohesive sense of a worldview, 'cause now what I noticed, like I'm pretty into Jesus, but I'm not into religion, right?

32:00

So I find this interesting thing that everybody I talked to and Christendom, especially now with the Internet has just, they're completely unique take.

Like everybody's got a unique take.

So there's the Co even in the religions that exist today, they're cohesion is coming apart.

32:16

So yeah.

So now we're in this place where there's no there's no social cohesion or or that glue that would normally bind people together.

And I would imagine there's not like a historical president to look at and go, well, we know how it played out here.

I'm curious.

It's like as you're watching all that happen as a historian, like where you see that trend taking us.

32:37

I mean, I think there's the individual, the fact that there's more room for individual interpretation obviously is a good thing, you know, because it's I don't think unless you are missing the good old days of the we chance or something, it's a good, you know, it's I rather not to go there.

32:57

There's a few, there's a few of those people out there, but we're not speaking to them.

But I think that's why to me, when somebody tell me when I am fill in the blank, whatever religion they happen to be, it doesn't really tell me anything because it's like, OK, what does that mean?

33:15

Like, you know, with the example of Christianity are there are people who take every word of the Bible is literally true.

There are people who interpret it in a radically different way.

There are super conservative Christians, super liberal Christians.

There are Christians who believe that homosexuality is the most evil of scenes, Christians who are gay.

33:35

You have, you know, you have everything in the opposite under the same umbrella.

So the label itself, it means nothing.

It's what you where you go with the label that interests me.

It's like what does your Christianity or your Buddhism or your whatever hell it is, right?

33:52

What does it mean?

You know, are you Muslim like Osama bin Laden Muslim or you're Muslim like the sweet neighbor who bake you cookies and we should say every day not the same thing.

You know what I mean is like the label may be the same.

That's why in general, like the whole thing of generalizations is always off the mark because you're trying to feed millions and millions of people in one narrow approach to that.

34:19

And some people will feed it and a bunch of people want.

And so that I mean on like what you mentioned, like I know people here in town in Ohio are extremely Christian in a way that many other Christian would consider flat out heretic.

34:35

You know they would be because they are very Sermon of the Mount and not much else.

They are not necessarily into much of the rest of the stuff, but they are into that approach to this is the prescription for living that Jesus lays out.

That's what I mean to of course, for a bunch of other Christians, that's like, how could you?

34:56

You are not?

So, you know, it's like, that's why I appreciate the fact that if nothing else, the modern world is giving more, is opening a range of possibilities that wouldn't have opened before, you know, in the past.

You are born in one place.

35:12

This is what you're going to believe.

The end.

You know, there's not much room for dissent or to have your own individual take on it.

Now this allows it.

Of course there is a problem that when you remove dogmas in the rigid sense of the word from people lives.

35:30

In some cases, people haven't done the homework to figure out equally strong values to guide their lives by.

And so the mellow secular, we are open minded.

You can pick and choose, which is great in many ways, doesn't replace the hunger for OK, but how do I tackle the mystery of it all?

35:53

How do I deal with that?

How do I deal with grief?

How do I deal with all the things that tend to push people to our religious interpretations?

And clearly the scientific worldview has nothing to replace it with in that regard.

36:09

You know it cannot feed that hunger of the human soul.

And doesn't claim to, and doesn't really attempt to.

And of course, well, the hunger is still there, so you can it's the number of people who can just say forget it and live happily regardless.

36:26

There are some for sure, but there are a bunch of people who can't, you know, who need some.

So that's where to me is interesting is both.

On a personal level, I firmly believe that everyone should should figure out what their values are.

36:41

You know, what's your, what do you believe in?

Forget believe in a God or no God kind of way.

I mean maybe that too, but like terms of behavior.

Interpersonal.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And like I'm.

Huge on the idea of having a code that is your way of life.

36:59

You know you live by it.

Like it drives me nuts when I hear people espousing certain values only to live from 2 radically different values.

And I'm like, we really don't believe in this stuff.

Why do you say even to yourself?

Why are you lying to yourself?

37:16

Because if you really believed it, you would actually live up to it.

It's not that hard to figure out where you stand and live by that.

It's really not that complicated.

So if you don't do it, that's telling me something that there's a disconnect there that you haven't really done the homework of figuring out who you want to be.

37:35

And so you just borrow some ideology because it sounded cool even to realistically who you are doesn't match those stated idea.

And and I'm huge on that because I'm I'm open to all kind of different approaches, but I need to know that what you are saying and what you are doing a match that's important.

37:56

Otherwise, we're just, we're lying to each other and we're lying to ourselves.

You know, it's kind of like all the guys were like, I don't know, the sacred, the sacredness of monogamy and then are cheating left, right.

And I'm like, dude, don't say it if you don't believe it.

38:13

Say that you want an open relationship.

That's honourable.

That's fine if that's how you want to behave, but you cannot tell me this is the absolute great approach.

Except that I really don't want to live by that, because it's a lie, you know?

Yeah.

And you see the flip to where it's the sacredness of polyamory.

38:32

But then you're like, I've watched you a while.

You're mostly just sleeping around and that's fine.

But like, you're calling it something.

Yeah.

You know, I, I had the experience earlier in my career.

I was starting to get some momentum and some fame.

And I was speaking on stages and got to speak with a lot of big names.

38:47

And I often saw in the after parties that the way that people behaved was not who they were on the stage.

And it was very disheartening to me and I, but you know, to be honest, I, I started falling right into the same trap.

And I before I knew it, I was like that.

And then it was like, wait a second, you know, to really pull back.

39:03

I'd love to hear a little bit more from you about this idea of a code, because I do think that one of the big things that's come with secularism, I remember kind of getting trained in this as a kid is like situational ethics, you know, where everything is like, well, wishy washy, which I have room for that to a degree, because I think it's important to interpret situations individually and not have that rigid dogma.

39:26

But at the same time, it allows sometimes people have like no character at all.

And you know, my wife has so much character.

Like when I when we got married, it's been this eight years now of me like learning, like, wow, OK, I've got work to do.

Like this woman is like teaching me about character.

Yeah.

39:42

What's that like for you?

And what's that journey of developing a code like?

Anything you want to say about that?

I'm very interested to hear.

Yeah, I think for me is, I guess I'll tackle it in a couple of different ways.

One, what you were saying about the contextual approach to ethics or behavior, I mean on one end.

40:01

Context is king.

You know, the same behavior that's terrible in one context is exactly what's needed in a different context.

And, you know, nobody wants to say, take a violence.

Of course, violence is far from ideal in most context.

When there's a dude breaking through your door trying to murder you.

40:19

Yeah, that's right.

You know, So it's like clearly context but even less dramatic.

You know, it's like you can you have multiple children, let's say, and you have a philosophy of how you want to raise your kids and you are maybe you give them a lot of freedom and it works like a charm for this one kid who tries on freedom.

40:40

They the more trust you give them, the more freedom, the more they do really well.

And if you were to try to put them in a box, they would be pissed and rebel and all of it.

So the freedom works.

So you think that is the way to teach children And then you have another kid will really need structure who's doesn't feel structure as an imposition as some they they thrive on it.

41:02

They need more guidance.

They need maybe doesn't mean you, you know, are ultra harsh and dogmatic, but still they need a structure that the other one doesn't.

They would feel like a prison to the other one.

So to me, that ability to read the room and to make the appropriate changes depending on the context is absolutely key.

41:23

Having said that, I have a big believer that there are no absolutes except when there are, you know, because it's like, for the most part, things are context driven.

But then there are a few things that are not.

41:39

Like to me, whereas you tell me AI like the violence example, you know is appropriate in a self defence context and is not appropriate in many others.

There is no such thing as self defence rape.

You know what I mean?

41:55

The rape is under 10% of cases.

There is no scenario whatsoever that you can say but that one time.

No, there is not that one time there's.

A zeal.

She was dressed.

Like we are a horrible human being.

Yeah, there's more room for.

42:11

So to me, there are a few things that are absolutes, but there are not that many, you know?

Yeah, you don't abuse feel there, and you don't rape.

You don't, You know, there's a few things that are absolute harsh nose, but other than that, most of the time is contextual.

42:28

The problem with that is that telling people it's contextual, you need to read the room unit is not really helping them if they are not used to it, if they don't know how to do it well.

Because that kind of ability to that kind of flexibility, again, for somebody who has done their homework, who really knows themselves, who understands other people, who has can work out like a charm for somebody else, they are going to be lost because they don't know how to read the room.

42:56

So you telling them just be flexible and figure out what's appropriate in that context is like, I don't know what probably, you know, it's like they so you need to, it's a great approach for very strong human beings who know themselves in that sense.

43:15

It's like the Taoist thing, right?

The Taoist that is a kind of ridiculous, almost elitist thing where they would be when, you know, most worldview tend to want to attract followers.

The Taoist approach was like, how do you want to mess with us?

43:31

You know, it's like you can get hurt with our stuff.

You know, why don't you follow Confucianism?

They'll give you 3 simple rules.

Just delimit the amount of damage and do that's that's good for you.

You know, the idea is that degree of freedom you need to build the muscles for it.

43:51

It's like going to the gym and trying to live £300 on your first day is like you need to build up to it.

It's a process and you need to it's a discipline.

You need to become good at it.

You need to see the results you need to all of that is not something that you can just tell anybody to do that from day one with no preparation and expect a good outcome.

44:12

Most of the time it doesn't work.

Most of the time people get lost and that's when then they want the safety of a religious dogma or even a philosophical dogma to hold them tight and tell them these are the things we do.

These are the things we don't do The end.

44:28

You don't have to think about it so hard.

For me, I think it's, I think it's key for any human being or the name of a human being to figure out who they are, how they want to live, and then live according to it.

44:45

Because again, once you are, you're on your values, it shouldn't really be much effort to live up to them because if you really cared for them, if you really think that's the best way of living, how hard is that?

Otherwise, I'd change my mind.

45:00

I'll go is slightly different.

You know what I mean?

I don't have a harsh for me, everything is a balance.

So it's like in some cases it's like I have this idea of whole trade discipline, but I also wanna rest a bit.

It's like, yeah, both are legitimate and you should and you should figure out the balance between the two.

45:18

What's a healthy 180207030?

Where do we draw the line?

And that's.

How is today going?

And like, you know, it's day-to-day even.

Absolutely.

So that's, I have no problem with.

It's, it's when it becomes dogmatic that it's a problem, you know, and then people can live up to it.

45:35

And then I mean, I'm sure like the monogamy example, I'm sure some of these guys really believe in it.

And then but then they it clearly doesn't match the entirety of who they are.

And they do want to have more sexual freedom and they do want that.

So it's like, OK, what is the thing that can combine these different drives?

45:55

You know, as long as the game, the drives are not toxic and is not abusing other people or something.

If they are just legitimate option that human beings may want to live by, what's the spot that allows you to keep these with a little bit of that?

If that's what you want to live by?

46:12

You know, and I think it's important because so often choices are framed in black and white terms.

You we can either have these or that.

And he's like, no, I kind of want these and that.

Let's figure out a healthy balance between the two where where they can live with each other.

46:29

You know that that me more.

I heard somebody say the other day they were saying abstinence is a lot easier than to manage than moderation.

You know that moderation takes a lot of skill.

This is another lesson I've just learned from my wife.

I'm like, like if I want to stop doing something, I get it completely out of the house.

46:47

Like I don't want to eat that anymore.

It can't be in the house because if it's in the house, I'm going to be like, well, the way I'm going to get rid of it is to eat it all now.

You know, like extreme, extreme, extreme, extreme.

And she's like really, really dialed moderation into a level that's like hard for me to it's just been taking me years to like understand that that's actually the harder prescription is moderation.

47:08

It the other thing is it's so unpopular.

It's like, you know how it is you get on social media, it's extremes and polarization.

And if you get in there with a message of moderation, you're not getting heard, you're not getting seen.

You know, I in the diet world, I have this.

I'm always teasing because it's when I was coming up, veganism was so popular, right?

47:28

And now what's popular is all animal food.

And you're like, OK, well, look, guys, we're just swinging A pendulum from one extreme to the other.

And I always joke like about putting out a book called like the Omnivore Diet, you know, And it's just like, it's like, who wants to read that?

47:43

It just sounds too milk toast and boring.

But actually that is the reality, right?

Like it's it takes a black belt level skill to manage moderation it seems like.

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean it because it's easy to understand duties.

48:00

Don't do that always in all circumstances.

It's a lot harder to be able to read the room appropriately to figure out which key is the one that needs more freedom and to what degree and which key and where Are you ready to course correct?

48:16

Because even that can go too far.

And then it's a process and you need to be, I mean, the primary quality you need to have is be aware.

You need to have an in degree of awareness of yourself, other people, changing conditions and all of those factors are what allows you to read the reality and make the right call.

48:35

But for people who haven't build that muscle, that's really hard and it's confusing and it's weird.

And on the food they go and think of that was fun.

I've done occasionally.

I haven't done it in a while.

48:50

I probably should again where I'll do like a 40 day period of really clean up my diet where I do no sugar, no pasta, no rice.

Couple of those weeks I don't do animal products.

49:06

The rest I do.

I forgot what I know.

Alcohol of course.

And you know, go pretty hard and and I remember once in a while because of course, maybe my daughter is not doing that or my lady is not doing that.

So we're having lunch together and I'm eating some parts of it and not others.

49:23

And I remember one time my daughter was there and she's like deep in, I forget if he was Nutella or what, but she's deep in this pool.

It is giant, creamy, perfect Nutella thing.

And she was like, I'm sorry.

And I was like, no, no, I mean, it's my problem, not yours, you know, eat whatever you want.

49:41

And I was like, you know what?

Actually, let me show you something.

Give me that spoon of Nutella.

She's like, but no, you're trying not to have like, she gives me the spoon.

I go and I don't touch it and give it back.

And at the moment there was for me, it was for me it was, I mean it was performed but said it was fatty.

50:00

But it was primarily for me because he was like, there is a part of me that's looking at it and going, man, I want that Nutella right now.

That whole jar in my stomach now and and for me in that moment, rather than going no I shouldn't and just be all like building up this internal pressure.

50:21

The moment where I tell myself, look, if I want, I can, I'll grab it.

I'm smelling it.

It's right here.

But I'm making a cultural choice not to now.

I switch the situation from I'm feeling crappy about something I want and I can't have to.

50:37

I'm feeling good about myself for in the 42 to be able to because I understand why I'm doing it and so why I don't want to do it in this context.

And now I feel good about it and I don't feel like I'm depriving myself.

I feel like I'm strengthening myself.

50:55

And then, you know, another time when the 40 days are up, I left my happy hotel.

You know what I mean?

It's like, it's so I think there's a dance there.

Yeah, it's like the difference between like a victim mentality and an empowered mentality, right?

Because if you're doing it and you feel like a victim of these choices, that's really difficult to do.

51:13

I want to shift gears into something that maybe it's a little dark, but I know you can handle it.

Earlier, we were both kind of agreeing that there's certain things, rape, child abuse, that we're like not never, never an excuse for this.

Never.

OK.

And I would have thought that given the historical perspective, I would have thought this is a great time in history.

51:34

Like, there's so much less of that now than in the ancient world.

But I think it's becoming more apparent to us that it's more like the movie Metropolis, where it's like, yeah, on the surface, it appears that way.

But beneath, in the gears, underneath the mechanics, there's a lot.

I keep hearing this thing, and I don't know if it's really true or not, but I keep hearing there's more living slaves today than at any other time in history.

51:56

If you add up sex slavery and maybe right something like 50 million peoples, what I've read and I know slavery is so prominent in the ancient world and the rights that somebody would have over their servants and slaves and such.

52:12

But now that we've had these things like the Epstein files surface and we see some of the stuff that's going on where there does appear to be a pretty significant network through which children are bought and sold.

You know, women are are exploited when they're, you know, still not even adults yet.

And maybe this is going on at really, really high levels.

52:31

I'm kind of curious, like, just, yeah.

Is this just historically normal?

And we cleaned up the surface so that we what we see, you know, there's a great haiku.

You might know it from Isa, he says all day we walk around on the roof of hell gazing at flowers.

52:50

And I, it's kind of like, is it like that?

Like we've just cleaned it up.

Is this historically normal?

Is there more going on now?

Is it worse?

Is it better?

I'm just kind of curious your perspective because I think people are realizing there's stuff going on that they just had no idea what's going on.

53:07

I think there's a bit of both because on one level there are certain practices that were absolutely normal and nobody would have but an eyelash about it that are the fact that they are not socially accepted now, regardless of the fact that many people still engage in them, but that they are not socially accepted definitely helps.

53:25

I mean, if you read like Marcus Aurelius and one of his flexes about hey, after all, I'm a good guy is like, hey, I don't even rape my slaves.

And you're like, wow, that's nice.

You know, before the war that he came from, that was a flex that was like, what a unusual guy you are here, You know, So there's something to be said about stuff not being normalized.

53:50

And even the idea that, yeah, like the people who engage in it, they do so knowing that they have to hide, I think that makes a big difference compared to something that's completely socially acceptable.

I mean, is the difference even in racism?

54:06

Like if you look at racism pre 1960s, or well for that matter, where it's going today, there's a level of racism that's way more publicly accepted where people are not ashamed of it.

There was a long stretch of time for quite a few decades in U.S. history where people are still racist as hell, but there was this sense of I need to hide it.

54:29

I need to be ashamed of it.

Now this is not to say the racism didn't exist, obviously it existed obviously was big, but the fact of having to keep it under certain level actually I think help because both the people themselves acted on it less than they would have.

54:47

They are knowledge it to themselves less.

You know, it was a process where some of it is fake, but it keeps a ceiling on how big it can go.

Whereas if you come out of it there, it just explodes.

To me, what you describe is bizarre beyond belief.

55:07

The idea that, I mean, think about it like you're talking about some of the richest, wealthiest people in the world.

And what do they want to do with all that power?

I want to have a bunch of sex slaves.

And I'm just like, or rape children.

55:24

It's like, why, you know, you could give me people are like, oh, absolute power corrupt.

Absolutely.

I'm like, dude, I'm not delusional about it.

You can give me every dollar in the world today where I'm the richest human on earth.

55:40

You can give me full control over the government.

The thought that I'm going to use that because, oh, finally I got a chance to rape children is like, what the hell, man?

What is wrong with you is like it's not the power that corrupted you.

You are fucked up to begin with and the power gave you a chance to act on it, you know, but you think.

56:00

You don't think it's possible that as you climb that ladder you become sequentially more corrupted through stages?

I mean, I think you were to begin with and climbing off the ladder give you more opportunity.

Maybe it's more normalizing that circle.

Maybe you think, hey, all the cool guys do it.

56:18

But again, it's because hey, you were either a terrible human being to be to begin with, or maybe not a terrible terrible human being to begin with, but you are a weak human being to begin with.

Human being wind up in a position of power is like the worst scenario possible because now you have people who are going to be easily swayed by the crowd, who are going to be easily seducted by the three.

56:44

Love having power over others without having tempered it with empathy or anything like that.

And, and it's a nightmare because but to me it's like, I don't think that if you put a real solid, strong, good hearted human being in a position of power that they are going to flip and become monsters.

57:05

I mean, they may have to make choices that are morally complicated.

They may have to do.

I get that.

I understand that the power game is.

It they don't have to start eating babies or anything like that.

That doesn't.

You don't need to go that far, you know what I mean?

That's a whole other thing.

The hell, man, What does that say about you?

57:24

If the moment you have power, that's what you go for, you know?

Yeah, but that's a lot of them.

It's it's really shocking.

And I'm curious like, too, when you look at some of these characters who are, you know, let's say in politics now, like folks like Trump or, or if you look in the tech sector and you've got like the Altmans and the Zuckerbergs, the Elon Musk's, do you see characters like this historically?

57:49

Like how, you know what I mean?

Like is this, are these personalities just a universal feature of humanity?

It seems like everywhere you turn, everyone's promoting.

59:13

If you look at most of the history of humanity, most of the people in most of the people whose names you remember in history books were absolute psychopaths, you know?

Like do you mean that?

You mean that literally?

Like they are sociopathic and and potentially criminal so therefore psychopathic.

59:34

Yeah.

And and I think there's a double factor there.

There's those guys tend to be better at seizing power because it's all about conquest and aggression and take over and is.

And then there's the job molds you into one if you are and want to begin with, unless you are supremely strong to begin with.

59:54

And that's why people remember the Marcos Aurelius type of stuff because they were the more.

I mean, honestly, it's not that like on the surface, the bar seems pretty low.

It's like, OK, you're a decent human being who doesn't brave slaves and was trying to do the best for the country and you low bar, you know?

1:00:12

But clearing that low bar already seems like a miracle given where everyone else falls.

And, And I think that's, yeah, I mean, generally speaking, when you look at most of the famous figures in history who made the history books, they are they are horrible people.

1:00:30

You know and.

It's easy to think that and that's humanity because that's what you find in history.

But once you start digging through the maybe they you know, they don't got to remember like Alexander the Great.

But you find is one story is 1 attitude that remind you that most human beings are not like that.

1:00:49

The many human beings were, but you know, they lived on their farm and treated their neighbors well and raise good kids and whatever.

And that's not the stuff that makes the history book.

And.

Right, Yeah, I've noticed.

Like when people talk about ancient history, like let's say they're talking about Egypt, all they're imagining is the royal elite, or they're thinking about the Mayan culture, whatever it is, or they're talking about reincarnation, they're always sure they were born into that top upper echelon.

1:01:14

And they forget like that most of history is people in the peasant class, right?

Just regular people struggling, suffering.

Child mortality is like 50%.

Like it life's hard, you're hungry, right?

And that's like the reality for most of us and actually brings me around.

1:01:30

I wanted to ask you about this.

I hope it's OK.

But I, you know, I didn't know I know this about you.

You know, I, I know you from your your History on Fire podcast, which is so well known and you as a historian.

But I was reading about you this morning and about.

About your book about how you lost your wife and and when a year.

1:01:50

After she had her child.

And I was like, really?

I was really struck by that just, you know, hit me because of like, the human condition, you know, like, I think one of the things that binds us all together is like, most of us, no matter what you see on the surface, have experienced grief and trauma.

1:02:06

And it is what shapes us.

And I was so curious how you got through that because as a man, the idea of experiencing that is like, wow, I just, I can't imagine, like, how devastating.

But also then there was the sheer responsibility you were faced with.

And I think the responsibility factor is both terrible and good at the same time because on one end, you know.

1:02:29

Yeah.

And she went.

It was, you know, And again, even that you can see the good and the bad.

But she went fast.

Like, she went from being super healthy, athletic and strong to dead within six months.

How old was she?

36, super fast moving cancer in a part of the brain that was inoperable, that was extremely aggressive that I mean, she literally went from being like solid, strong, healthy woman to completely wasted away in less than six months.

1:03:05

So that's, and again, you know, that's terrible in itself regardless.

I don't know if it's any better if it takes 40 years, you know, maybe it's even worse.

Because however it plays now, it's traumatic.

It's horrible no matter what, right?

Different.

Flavors, yeah.

Yeah, it was all definitely.

1:03:21

There's the shock factor of everything happening so quick.

There's and then, you know, there's the part of like, OK, that happened.

There's the grief, there's the and then now I have to take care of a year and a half old baby by myself and man, that's heavy, you know, because I don't get to sleep.

1:03:42

I'm always I'm stressed as hell because I have to worry about her 24/7.

I can barely work.

I but I need to work because of my money is disappearing.

You're a man.

You're not exactly wired for this job, you know.

On the other end, the fact, and I mean, there's a price that I definitely paid in stress and all of of that because of that scenario that's, you know, undeniable that just where it was on the other side of it, there's the fact that he gave me definitely gave me a purpose.

1:04:12

You know, I was like, I don't have time for better or worse to really feel the grief.

I can.

I'm, I have diapers to change.

I have to worry about, you know, things I have to, I'm on 24/7.

Which again, maybe it's healthy to be able to have time to really just mourn and your grieving process and get through to the other side if you're able to cause some people then will dwell on it for the rest of their lives and never get out.

1:04:44

I definitely didn't have the option of even finding out which way I would end up because I couldn't go there.

You know, I had a job to do that took all of my energy and I had to raise my daughter.

That was it.

So again, there are two ways to look at it.

1:04:59

It's Oh my God, that was not only the grief, but on top of it, that level of stress because of all the responsibility.

And on the other side there is well, that level of responsibility also gave you a purpose, a mission.

You had to find the strength because otherwise everything goes to hell.

1:05:19

And so you can kind of look at it both ways.

You know is I definitely, you know, it messed me up for sure.

I had many years where I mean, still to this day, I definitely have a raised level of anxiety compared to possibility average person.

1:05:35

I did have a whole bunch of psychosomatic issues over the years.

They were clearly caused by grief and stress and things like that.

I it was funny too, because I would I would operate perfectly functional, right?

1:05:52

I would get stuff done like you wouldn't believe it with an efficiency that was freaking.

And at the same time I would go through these phases where fairly often to where I would have non-stop panic attacks for a month where I'm just feeling like 3/4 of the day.

1:06:09

I feel like somebody shoving my head underwater and I'm just like, you know, but somehow I was still getting stuff done and even smile like cracking jokes or whatever.

And like, the contrast between the two is pretty brutal.

But over time, you know, it took a long time.

1:06:24

Over time, it got progressively a little bit better.

I don't know how, you know, you always read the stories that I'm kind of suspicious of, of the people who tell you the perfect cure.

It's like if you just go and do what you ask how you will purge all your demons and you'll be fine.

1:06:41

Or if you fall into this diet, it will.

Or, you know, there's 10 zillion perfect cures and I'm sure most of them do something to some people.

They tend to write the book in the first year, so you're like, let tell me about 10 years later, is it still the perfect cure?

1:06:58

I tried 10 zillion things to see like I need help here, and none of them did anything that was that dramatic.

The way I read it in the stories where you are, this the kind of testimony I'm sure something did 1% and another thing did half and another.

1:07:15

And when you add them all together plus time eventually got me to a better place.

But.

But yeah, I mean, it's it's a brutal process.

It's it was rough beyond belief.

There's a story I'll tell you one story that was actually it's one of the I love remembering this because it's one of my lowest moment and one of the coolest moment to where my daughter by Dennis must be two years old.

1:07:43

This was a few months of this going on.

I'm really beat to hell.

I have no energy.

I'm trying to figure out what to do career wise.

I'm trying to raise air and so I put her down for her nap and you know there's the whole 10 minute reach well to calm her down and puts down for a nap.

1:08:01

I'm like it's my hour of oxygen now I can focus on something for an hour and 5 minutes seeing she cries and I'm like OK, let's start again.

I do the whole thing, put her OK took longer than I meant to but at least now she's asleep.

1:08:18

Start again and then two minutes later she wakes up and cry and I realized she's not going to sleep and and I'm like and I literally like I walked to a room and I felt something in me just snap where I'm like I have nothing left.

1:08:33

We have officially reached the bottom of the tank.

There's no one drop left in me.

I don't know what the hell we're going to do 3 hours from now because I'm done.

I have nothing and I walk in and I'm like, I'm not even looking at her.

1:08:49

Not because I'm mad, of course, because she's a baby.

What?

She has no fault, but I'm just broken, you know.

So I just put a hand on her in her creep, but just to let her know I'm here.

You can relax.

But I'm just and all of a sudden I hear, you know, she's doing this classic baby cry and she cuts it dead silent halfway through a cry, which is normally not the way she would.

1:09:12

So I'm like she choking.

What's happening?

And she's sitting up looking at me just eye to eye, and without breaking eye contact, she grabs my hand and very slowly and deliberately caresses my hand.

1:09:30

And she keeps looking at me like this.

And it's a freaky feeling because I feel like, you know, it's her.

It's not like something else.

It's her, but it's almost her from a different timeline.

It's like a herd that's super strong, super wise.

1:09:46

And he's telling me, like, I get it, this sucks, you know, this is awful, but you're going to be OK.

You think is worse than it is.

And then she does that for like, I don't know, 2030 seconds.

And now she goes back to being a baby and Google whatever.

1:10:03

I was like, OK, I don't know what that was, but that was intense, you know?

Wow, that's a fascinating story.

Like a little moment of clarity, like for you, like something beautiful for like a gift for you, right?

1:10:19

To give you that recharge.

Extra recharge.

That's OK, You're not a dead level.

We added a tiny bit of gas in there, you know.

Yeah.

So.

But yeah, wow, I was tripping.

Yeah, I feel like people are just walking around with like wells of grief, you know, deep grief.

1:10:37

And I, I find I'm, I'm maybe you've experienced this, but I found it with my own trauma and my own grief.

Like I remember when I was a teenager, I was going to this church and every Sunday they would do like an altar call, you know, and I would go up there and just like, cry.

I just get up there and cry.

And after a couple months I was like, oh, this isn't ever going to end.

1:10:54

I just like, it's like, and what's well, like I was like, I could do this for the next 10 years.

Like at some point I just have to stop and be like, OK, I'm going to not do this anymore because the grief is like a never ending well.

And it and it, I think it was really good for me to like empty that for a while.

1:11:09

But I also got to the point it's kind of like therapy where you're like, OK, how long am I going to talk about my mom here?

I guess I just got to like go pull up my pants and, you know, be a big boy or whatever.

Right.

So yeah, like I'm kind of curious at that time, were you in the States then or were you in Italy?

Yeah.

Yeah, it wasn't.

Interesting you.

1:11:25

We were talking before about how little community we have for real in the States, and that must have been one of the bigger challenges because like, did you have people to gather around you or was that something you had to really do on your own?

1:11:41

Yeah, I mean, especially after a year and some, it got easier because then we move next to my mom, so at least she was around some of the time.

So a year and a half into it, it got easier.

The first year and a half of just me and my daughter was not that much.

1:12:01

So I had, you know, there were a couple of people, couple of wonderful ladies.

Well to me out where one was a friend and you know, like she would watch her I think one day a week or two days a week or something.

So I could actually work a little bit and, and another friend who actually ended up, I ended up having that took a while, like a year or some, like a year and a half later or something.

1:12:27

Then we ended up having a relationship and she was helping when she could.

And so I had a couple of people who gave me, but I literally remember like the time when one of them was like, yeah, I can watch her for the next three hours and I could go not do anything.

I could go to have a doctor appointment.

1:12:44

Yeah, I was like ecstatically happy that I had the time to go to have a doctor appointment, you know, and so was that was or like the first, the first Christmas break I had from because I was teaching university at the time.

And the first Christmas break I had, I remember I spent like a month where 95% of my verbal interaction were with my 2 year old daughter or something.

1:13:11

So it was kind of because I remember I went back to college and I was like talking with adults, this is weird.

This is with anymore, you know, it was like so I was, I was sleeping for sure.

When you were talking before about, you know, having a code to live by, I think in, in the US right now, I, I did a show recently, I called it the trap of project self because I feel like that's one of the big traps we fall into.

1:13:37

It's like, even with this, it's like, OK, what's my code going to be?

It's like, what's my code for me and how I want to live and how's it going to benefit me?

And, and I think one of the things like if people are listening to this, thinking about that for themselves, like one of the things that's so important to build in is that kind of service to others.

1:13:52

Because it sounds like those three hours that somebody gave you in that moment, like the value of that is incalculable, right?

Like when you do for others, it's like the difference between giving and receiving gifts.

And I think that's one of the things that we're sorely lacking in the community pieces that we're not really there for each other the way that we could be.

1:14:13

And it's not just about getting together and having dinner and singing songs, but it's like knowing there's people who are there to kind of like pick up the pieces a little bit.

Yeah, I mean, it's, it happens, Yeah.

Because, I mean, the reality is, as you said, everybody has gone through heavy stuff.

1:14:30

You know, some people have gone through heavier stuff, some people less, but you don't get through.

I mean, and if you haven't gone through heavy stuff, well, consider yourself lucky so far.

But it's.

Coming.

It's coming.

Yeah, there's.

No way to avoid it.

And so I think like we know that that's real.

1:14:47

We know that that's what all human beings deal with.

So I think having a little bit of grace with each other is nice to understand that a, everybody's going through heavy stuff.

Of course, that doesn't mean I'll give you a pass if you turn into an abusive monster.

It's like, I don't care.

1:15:03

I'll I go through every stuff too and I don't.

So no, there's a level where you don't get a pass.

But I think I'm more unless their dramatic scenes is like, look, that guy's doing the best he can.

You know, he's he doesn't always respond the best way he's doing, But you know, let's the and I think engaging in like talking.

1:15:26

It's always struck me as a weird thing that that a bunch of times I've had people tell me, Oh my God, I I never had a conversation.

I never have conversation like this with anybody and kind of like I'm now their new best friend and I'm like, I mean, I'm both happy and honored, but also, oh man, that really bad because honestly, I was just being a halfway decent human being and not doing anything like that.

1:15:53

Amazing.

You know, it's like these are really low bar if this is where it's at.

But then I realized for a lot of people it is where it's at.

And I'm like, OK, the least I can do is if I have the energy for it.

But sometime you do, sometime you don't.

But if I have the energy for it, yeah, at least I can do this.

1:16:11

You know, listen to people when they are going through stuff be let them talk.

If you have something constructive to say, do it, but do it delicately and just gently.

Maybe push them in a direction or you feel it may be slightly out there.

But primarily just even letting them know you're listening, you are paying attention, you want knowledge what they are going through.

1:16:33

And then maybe you can have a tiny bit of input.

It's not rocket science, you know, but he's, but he makes a huge difference.

Huge impact.

People.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Do you see this as so like with your, you have such a good perspective on the past and when you look out at the future, we've kind of identified a few of the issues going on modern world, particularly here where we both live in the States.

1:16:57

But when you're looking at the future, how optimistic or pessimistic are you about where things are headed?

Before I mentioned how we sort of pendulum between these extreme like so, so like do we pendulum to extreme community because we got so far away from it?

Does do these systems that are so complex collapse or do they have enough built in resiliency?

1:17:16

Like what do you what kind of future do you see on the horizon?

How do me or how?

How optimistic are you?

I mean, complex systems reliably survive forever, so unless you figure out a way to transition to another complex system before a full collapse, you're screwed.

1:17:34

Because a full collapse now is again, is not a full collapse 5000 years ago where you could still go out and hunt or have your little farm is like, we have lost so much skill and even just the environment is so much less productive that complete collapse now means it's an extinction event pretty much or, or something extremely close to that.

1:17:56

So is that a possibility?

Of course there's a possibility.

There's a decent possibility.

That doesn't mean it's all gloom and doom.

And ultimately, you know, we're talking about things that are so far beyond our individual control that I think it drives you nuts to think about it because you can start planning whatever you want.

1:18:14

In the end, it probably is not going to make any difference because it's there.

They are so much bigger than what you can do as an individual.

So I think it's important, while you're getting depressed and bummed out by the state of things around you, to remember the small scale, you know, the small scale where you can have an impact.

1:18:34

The no, maybe I don't change the destiny of the world and save humanity from the comet, but I can make somebody smile today, you know, I can make.

And I think he's like worrying about stuff that I have no power to affect.

1:18:51

Probably not as good a use of energy as putting energy into something where I can have a positive impact right here, right now, you know, and, and maybe things turn out better than I thought.

Or maybe you had enough small things that they become bigger and you can be in a place where you can have an impact on bigger things or but you know, to me, it's like priorities.

1:19:13

What can I do right here today where I can touch to have a good impact on people that I'm going to interact with or animals or the environment I'm going to interact with.

You know that to me is one of my favorite lines in all of literature is design master EQ with this line that I adorn a combined your question about optimism PCBS because he says throw me into hell and I'll find a way to enjoy it.

1:19:43

We is not denying that horrible things can and will happen is like yeah, you know throw throw me into hell.

It can happen and reality can throw me into it whenever he wants, really.

But his defiances, yeah.

1:20:00

In the middle of the horror of it all, I'm still going to find that one micro space to have a defiance, smile and enjoy life no matter what, you know?

And I like that because that's really the only agency you have is that tiny little space when everything is crashing you to maybe find a little spot of joy, you know?

1:20:23

Yeah, it's beautiful.

I, you know, it's funny, you just said that word agency because this whole whole interview, I've been thinking there's this through line about our agency, you know, and us choosing how we relate to all of these uncontrollable processes.

And you know, here we are just so embedded somewhere in space-time.

1:20:40

You're like, here I am like, you know, all I have is my free will to do with it when I will.

So what's on the horizon for you, man?

What can we look forward to coming from you in the future?

And you know what are you working on?

So I'm I don't think I need to add elements to convince people that I'm a psycho, but I think I'll do that.

1:21:03

The I it's a weird thing because on one end, I don't think that you find meaning as a human being in work.

I think you can be perfectly happy just existing and we nice thing and that's probably a better way of living.

On the other hand, I work like a dog and much of it, some of it is I have to cause things cost money.

1:21:22

But but on the other side, is there parts of it I enjoy.

You know, I teach, I teach still a bunch of college courses podcasting beside the history on fire, which I've been doing for 11 years now.

I'm going to start a podcast that's specifically on the history of Rome.

1:21:39

And what I've done is I've never released a single episode yet and never scripted 55 of them because I don't want to have the the deadline looming when I'm.

Working that that way it's all prepared and you don't have every week to scramble to.

1:21:56

Yeah, this past year I.

I bet you have 55 of them done.

Wow.

Yeah, I scripted all of 2027 for History on Fire and more than a year of the Roman one.

Well done.

So that, that that allows me to to write, which is probably the thing I want to do the most.

1:22:17

I have a book coming out, hopefully November.

We're still trying.

I mean, it's coming out in September in Italy and I think it's going to come out in November in US.

It's the first time that I do fiction.

You know, I've published no fiction in the past that this is historical fiction.

1:22:32

And taking the life of Caravaggio, the Italian painter was wild as hell.

Killed a guy in a duel was the way I explain it is think Tupac and Tupac being an Italian painter, you know is mixed videos and chaos and everything and I'm doing a historical fiction about his life is the first of two books.

1:22:56

So I need to write the second.

But the the reason why it interests me is because that story caravage is kind of the poster boy for the tormented artist in many way.

You know, he's a classic, you know, genius, burn himself and end up horribly.

1:23:14

I want to change his story a bit like my historical fiction definitely takes liberties with his life.

And because I want to give it that, like the to me, the question that I want to explore is, is PTSD a life sentence?

1:23:29

Is there a way out of being super sensitive and being thrown, having serious demons haunting you?

Is, is it all like 27 Club where you're going to rise be a genius and, and miserably?

1:23:45

Or is there a way out there where there's an arc of redemption, where there's an arc to get out to end up?

That's really the story that interests me.

And then the I mean, in some way, even though I'm really writing about it, Italian painter in the 1600s.

There's a ton of it.

1:24:01

That's my own stuff that's more partially related to my life, partially related to.

So that's what I'm going to be doing and and I want to do more.

I enjoy tremendously writing fiction because I think that you can tell entertaining stories, creating great characters who are also facing the questions that are extremely real.

1:24:24

Like I would much rather do that than write a book that's like, here are the seven rules to deal with Trump.

I would like no thanks people.

That's great, but that's not my style.

I would rather go about it through through fiction.

1:24:42

Yeah, narrative.

Yeah.

Yeah, Wow, that's beautiful.

I look forward to that.

This has been really fascinating conversation, man.

I not even I, I appreciate the humanity, you know, like it's just nice to talk to somebody and feel that humanity, you know?

1:25:00

Where do you send people for all your stuff?

I think is History on fire podcast for people who enjoy podcast and are not turned off by insanely heavy Italian accents.

There's if you I don't write with an accent, so that's if you prefer the written version, There's a sub stuck that I do that's free to the part like whatever I write is free that I put up there.

1:25:28

The only thing that's behind the paywall, I'll do bonus episodes for history on fire listener.

But otherwise the free version is is just, I think it's just my name, Daniela Bolelli.

And then the sub stuck.

Those are probably the easiest points of entry.

And then, you know, anything else I do like the book or something, I'll mention it on sub stuck.

1:25:47

I'll probably mention it on History on Fire and and then I go from there.

Danielle Bolelli, thank you for your time today.

Thanks so much, this was a lot of fun.