Transcript: What's Missing? Circadian Health! — Zaid K. Dahhaj #012

0:00

It's a fascinating rabbit hole, but the the entire human body from head to toe is a circadian system, which is fundamental to understand here.

And how could it not be, you know, when you live on a planet like this, next to a star that's blasting out this amount of energy, how could you not be tuned to that?

The suprachysmatic nucleus, that's the master circadian clock, is what's responsible for relaying that circadian time signal to every other peripheral clock in the body.

0:25

You have circadian clocks in your skin, your mitochondria, every organ knocking out, you know, thousands of birds with one stone.

By getting out at that Daybreak, By getting out at the sunrise.

So a great recipe for skin cancer would be like wake up and spend the whole morning in a dark apartment and I I spent the evening staring into light boxes, blue light.

0:45

But I go out and I get that intense midday sun every day.

The.

Problem is not the light itself, it's the context in which the light is received.

In a circadian aligned human evolutionary appropriate environment, UV light does not cause cancer whatsoever.

I'm joined today by Zaid Dahaj, who's working to restore human health and sovereignty through circadian alignment.

1:08

He believes the circadian system is not just one factor among many.

It's the regulatory layer that determines whether everything else in the body is working or not.

Zaid, welcome to the show.

Thank you, Daniel.

Appreciate your your willingness to bring me on and excited to dive deep here.

1:25

You're out in California, huh?

Sunny California doesn't get.

I, I look at work like yours, you know, talking about things like circadian rhythm.

And I always think like, man, if I was in California, you know, you just have such consistent sunshine there, you know, and here in Maine right now, we're in it and it's awesome.

1:44

But man, we got it six months of, of winter.

So that's something I'll be curious to talk to you a little bit about.

But but starting off, how did you become so passionate about circadian rhythm?

Really just started as an athlete, like a lot of other athletes who get interested in health to a deeper level, I I pursued professional or really competitive soccer growing up or football for the European audience.

2:07

I wanted to to become a professional player.

That was always my lifelong dream.

And yeah, I spent the basically the 1st 2425 years of my life doing that and going to different countries and going to different trials didn't work out in the way that I wanted it to.

But I always say that everything happens for a reason.

2:23

And so that led me to the latter end of of my experience with soccer, which transitioned into the experience that I had with my father, which was basically 2 heart attacks within the span of a year.

Second heart attack put him into a coma that led to Hospice.

2:38

And you know, from that sort of expedited end up passing.

And from that sort of experience, I think you're forced to ask the deeper questions about how this could happen.

Because my father was very fit.

You know, he was actually my physical education teacher growing up because I went to a private school.

Oh wow, how old was he?

2:54

51, so very, very young, yeah.

Yeah.

And that's unfortunately a common thing in this day and age is that you have younger, relatively younger men in their 50s and 60s, even 40s or maybe even 30s just dropping dead of a heart attack or some, some sort of other acute condition.

3:12

And I find that to be very problematic, which is why I really tried to go deeper into the health subject.

You know, you go into supplementation and food and sleep and all that.

But eventually I found the work of Doctor Jack Cruz through the Tetragrammaton podcast with him and Rick Rubin, him, Rick Rubin, Andrew Huberman.

3:28

And that's what really blew my mind wide open in terms of the circadian front.

So from there, the rest is history.

And I just started to make contents work, worked with clients, and it's been an incredible journey so far.

Looking at your content on at least on Instagram, I sense a kind of mission and passion that is a little more intense.

3:48

Like like it makes sense that now you tell me that story because it's I feel this like fervor in you to get this information out that's a little stronger than I see from some other content creators.

Do you feel like that's an accurate assessment?

I feel like there's like a just a verve in what you're saying that that has some edge to it.

4:07

Well, the, the experience with my father really, I think added to that, but I've always been that type of character.

I mean, if you're playing in competitive sport, you know, especially me with that, with that obsessive personality, like I'm always trying to get an edge.

I'm always very intense, which is why it's, it's harder for me to work on kind of relaxation techniques and whatnot, having a parasympathetic.

4:27

And, and so that's always been a big thing for me.

And, and I've always been a big advocate of mastery and trying to understand things from first principles, which is why I basically detest a lot of the dilettantism that I see in mainstream dermatology and, and, and these other specialties that don't have Adian framework for the skin barrier, any of these other subjects.

4:47

So yeah, intense personality.

And, and that's, that has pros and cons.

But with this work, it's it's absolutely a pro.

Yeah, well, I mean, you're up against an entire industry of misinformation and lies that are, on their face, kind of obvious.

5:03

I want to talk about how it became obvious to me.

And then I want to kind of hear from your perspective because I think we both have arrived here, but probably from slightly different journeys for me.

And I'll kind of preface this by saying I lifeguarded at beaches for five years when I was younger.

5:20

I didn't wear sunblock once. 5 summers.

I sat up, you know, elevated on those seats, you know, those lifeguard chairs out in the sun everyday.

And not to say I never have place for sunblock.

I mean, I, I do I, I remember going to Thailand right after that and having my whole face peel off and learning a real powerful lesson about that.

5:41

But you know, like Equatorial sun.

But, but you know, I arrived at it by just through this process of rewilding and thinking about ancestral people.

And not only did they not have sunblock, they didn't have indoors, as we think of it.

So these are people who are outside all the time, in all weather instances, constantly being exposed to the sun without these cancers that we hear so much about today.

6:07

And so it became very obvious to me that the cause of that could not be the sun that is, on its face, absurd.

And yet it's incredible and sort of like a emperor wears no clothes kind of way.

How many people have been duped by something so apparently incorrect?

6:28

How did you arrive at it?

And sort of, you know, how does that what I just said sort of what does that stimulate for you?

It's not something that I've like looked for per say.

I mean, it's it's kind of just been a natural evolution in terms of how I relate to circadian first principles and going through different sub subsections within the overall subject to to really conclude that modern dermatology is circadian divorce.

6:55

Modern ophthalmology is circadian divorce.

Basically most of modern medicine is circadian divorced, even though new specialties are starting to pop up like chrono nutrition, which is circadian meal timing or krona, you know, circadian timing of certain medications that are being administered for better results.

7:13

Did you say?

Chrono, you said chrono.

Nutrition as in timed like the timing of nutrition.

Kronos.

Yeah, that that's a full on new specialty in in mainstream medicine.

So this is it.

It points to a lot of the contradictions that I find in the mainstream message.

But yeah, I just been going through the things like the Pomcey system, the proembial melanocortin system, the full spectrum at ground level and what that looks like in relation to spectral ratios.

7:40

You know, this concept of DNA damage as it relates to UV and hormesis, how that ties into all of this.

So it's really, it's really just been a, a never ending deep dive for me as to how I've kind of built up this epistemology to where I think that I, I do have, for lack of a better way to put it, I think I do have a world class epistemology in terms of the circadian front on this stuff.

8:02

And I think that's just because people just don't dive in.

They, they don't apply that obsessive nature to understanding the first principles with a lot of this.

And we'll inevitably get into the the nuance involved with each of these subjects here.

Well, let's back out a little bit, zoom out and let's define circadian.

8:18

I think a lot of our listeners will certainly have heard it and are probably have an idea of what it is.

But let's get a definition there first so that we are working from that.

What's really just describing the the 24 hour rhythm that your body falls under in relation to the solar day and also the night part of the the light and dark cycle.

8:38

So human beings since since our earliest ancestors lived under that light and dark cycle.

And so they were automatically in circadian alignment.

And what's incredible is that if you look at the biological mechanisms at play, things like circadian clocks predate most species.

8:55

I mean, we're talking about biological circadian controlled mechanisms that are hundreds of millions of years old that even find themselves in the earliest cyanobacteria, which is pretty incredible to understand.

And so you, your body is a collection of these ancient circadian mechanisms that are quite literally tuned to things like light and food in relation to timing of when you consume food, temperature, even social interactions are what we call a Zeitgeber German for time giver.

9:25

In other words, these are kind of cues in the environment that allow you to either align the circadian system and the circadian clocks within it or disrupt those circadian clocks, which would then lead to circadian disruption.

So it's a it's a fascinating rabbit hole, but the the entire human body from head to toe is a circadian system, which is fundamental to understand here.

9:45

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11:02

And how could it not be, you know, when you live on a planet like this next to a star that's blasting out this amount of energy and then it's gone for half of the, you know, the cycle it's and then comes back every day.

It's like, how could you not be tuned to that?

I mean, that was so kind of obvious at this point, though.

11:21

How do you sort of today, like you said, we are divorced from it.

You know, we have these conversations about like going to live on the moon or going to live on Mars in particular, where I just think like.

That's not going.

To like, it's not going to work.

You know, I'm sorry, that's just not really going to work.

11:37

But how do you think we get to this place where something so obvious and fundamental is now like alternative Health Science?

I mean, it's as absurd as that is to you and I.

11:53

That's where we're at for the average person.

How'd we get here?

It's multi factorial.

I think it's one part philosophical.

If you look at medicine, it operates through hyper reductionism.

So you have this distinction between reductionism and holism reductionism basically pointing to the idea that you focus on just one isolated part of a a system, whether it's a biological system or some other system out there.

12:16

And, and you just hyper focus on that one isolated part while ignoring the fact that you are actually looking at a system with complex synergies and interrelationships and whatnot.

And then holism is really just the, the understanding of systems thinking and everything that comes with it in terms of being careful with introducing certain interventions because those can cause 2nd and 3rd order consequences.

12:41

That's where we can get into sunscreen and sunglasses and all this other stuff.

But for, for me, I think that it's one part scientific in that sense.

It's one part certainly historical because of, of things like the Flexer report in the in 1910, you have Abraham Flexer, Andrew Carnegie, and then I believe one other individual who practically centralized medicine to the point where it ousted a lot of the alternative sort of philosophies, whether it be homeopathy.

13:10

I think circadian heliotherapy was a big part of that because I.

Was going to say, you see these, you see these people, patients laid out in beds in the sun before, you know, AMA kind of took over medicine.

But that was a major treatment, right?

It was understood.

Exactly.

And so 1910 was when the Flexner report came into play.

13:27

And then even prior to that, maybe 1900 to 19 O 8.

That's really the period where you find circadian heliotherapy through the work of doctor Augusta Rollier, who was the first heliotherapist to to do his thing at scale.

I think he treated over like 1800 patients with pretty incredible success rates from lupus vulgaris, which is tuberculosis of the skin, very fatal condition if left untreated to.

13:52

And then also first through the work of Niels Reiberg Finsen, who was the first person to basically win the Nobel Prize for photo biology on various disease models.

And so he would, you know, shine red light onto smallpox.

He would also do a lot of the same work as Augusta Rollier in terms of shining concentrated UV light through quartz glass onto various aspects of the the skin that had lupus vulgaris.

14:17

And, and so that's kind of the lost medicine that was ousted through the the flexor report.

And then from 1910 forward, you have Coco Chanel, you have companies like L'Oreal and Nestle that have basically infiltrated the, the, the realm to create a different paradigm.

14:35

And then that obviously ties to the World Health Organization in terms of its assessment that falls into flawed assumptions that are circadian divorce, like using isolated UV on nocturnal animals and in vitro models.

And so there's a lot to it, but I, I think it's, it makes sense from that perspective.

14:51

OK, so I want to know about the Flexner Report.

But first, let's just kind of go back a little bit.

You were talking about this era of medicine, you know, and it's interesting because for many years I've taught about this kind of concept of the four elements as our need for, you know, what we need for health.

15:07

So always compare earth to the food that comes from our soil.

And then, you know, water obviously is another need for our body, air and then fire being sunlight.

And when you look back at that era you're talking about, you also had things at the time like bound neopathy.

15:23

So that was like water based therapies.

People were going to different springs, soaking in different types of Hot Springs and cool springs, drinking different types of mineral waters.

You had these heliotherapies you're talking about.

There was sort of like this beautiful renaissance happening in medicine.

So before we get to the Flexion report, is there anything from that era in the heliotherapy that you want to discuss or what kind of make known for folks?

15:45

Because I mean, to me, like if I was sick right now with the flu, it's like, roll me outside and put me in the sun.

Yeah, certainly.

I think, you know, there, there's a lot to that, that little period.

I think number one, we have to consider the context.

16:01

So you had a lot of people moving from more agrarian societal structures, if that's the right word, to where you have a lot of living in a place of farmland and a lot of open space and a lot of sunlight and fresh air.

And then they basically moved to a more modern living situation where you had cities that had poor sanitation and in all of these different aspects.

16:22

And I just think that was a big detriment to where you saw the rise of things like rickets and certain acute, chronic inflammatory conditions.

And you know, the the doctors of that time, or at least the more enlightened ones understood that the, that change was a big part of why we see the this that rise in disease.

16:40

And so.

Urbanization specifically.

Exactly.

And you, you know, I think we could kind of can compare if you were a kid growing up on on the city streets, you know, especially at a time like then when people still spend a lot of time, you know, in their neighborhood outside kind of playing outside.

16:56

Like we don't see as much of anymore.

But, you know, those buildings become essentially artificial Canyon walls, right?

So maybe you get a little overhead sun at noon, but you're basically shaded out by those walls like you would be if you were inside the Grand Canyon or something.

Yeah, and even in apartment buildings that had a lot of families packed within it, you know, the the invention of baby cages was, was actually a sort of solution to this where they would basically attach a cage outside the window.

17:23

Doesn't matter whether it was three stories high, five stories high, seven stories high.

And they would quite literally risk their child's lives in order for them to get fresh air and to get sun really.

And there's, there's plenty of of pictures that are incredible on that front that I've, I've added to content in the past.

17:40

But yeah, that, that was 1 introduction.

And then even in 1931, this was after flex, after the Flexor report, you had the US Department of Labor's Child's Bureau recommend a a full on pamphlet for how to properly sunbathe baby.

17:56

Oh wow.

That's something that I have found incredible as well, because they understood the difference between UV indexes.

They understood the difference between an open window and a window that was closed in regards to the glass manipulation and so even after the Flexor report, you still had some wise people that were in government trying to implement this at scale.

18:15

But unfortunately, the tide has turned for the worst.

Well, because everything is getting more and more retarded as the days go on, right?

I mean, we're literally in an Idiocracy now.

It's like, it's like Terminator meets Idiocracy.

So you can always expect things to get stupider as what I what I think.

18:32

But OK.

So at that time also the the supplementation of vitamin D2 into the milk supply is related into this story in some way, right?

You brought up rickets, which for people listening today probably sounds like black plague or something, like some like Fargon, you know, typhus or something that's just like not around anymore because, you know, we've essentially eradicated it.

18:57

But this is when children had a lack of vitamin D so severe that their bones were not calcifying properly, right?

And they would end up with bow legs.

And I believe for adults, it's osteomalacia, which is bone pain and far more occult.

But could you kind of explain a bit about that or, or like is, is this that same time period where they start realizing they need to get, you know, vitamin D into people in some way?

19:21

Yeah.

Well, Ricketts itself, I haven't done a, a real deep dive on the, the nuances in terms of mechanisms and what not, but we do know that Ricketts rose pretty substantially during that early period because of that move from an agrarian society to a more urban situation.

So that's a big thing to consider.

19:37

And and I would say even I think I came across a story a couple years ago in the UK where Ricketts is even like starting to manifest again come.

Back.

Yeah, makes sense.

Yeah, and that's pretty crazy to understand because it's a pretty simple thing to address.

I mean, all you have to do is consistently get UVB exposure.

19:56

UVB is the only light wavelength that can produce the vitamin D3 conversion to allow for calcium to work properly to build up vitamin D3 stores and all of its different metabolites.

And to create strong development, especially in early age, which is why I'm such an advocate of circadian aligned heliotherapy to babies as well.

20:15

Like when my son was first born a few years ago, he's almost three years old.

One of the first things we did was prime in the morning microdose, UVA and UVB build up more melanin capacity, which is the adaptation and then make sure we're strict with the nighttime darkness.

20:31

So that's something we'll certainly get into and how that ties to to people's metabolic health.

But yeah, Ricketts is.

It's a pretty gnarly condition, but it's pretty easy to avoid.

Right.

Very easy to avoid.

Yeah, but I mean, like so many of these deficiency diseases that comes from from just wrong living, you know, like incorrect living conditions.

20:48

Tell me about the Flexner report.

What are we talking about there?

Again, we're just talking about the centralization of medicine to where you you have people like the like a Rockefeller who basically funded this Flexner report in order to control and, and have more say in what medicine does and what medicine is allowed in terms of the education structure.

21:10

So the the interesting thing about him is that he had a big, he had a big role to play in the.

Rockefeller you're talking about.

Yeah, yeah, JD Rockefeller in the production.

Imagine having your name associated with so many awful things.

It's crazy, you know?

Yeah, not a great family to be associated with, but he had a a huge say in control in petrochemical drug manufacturing.

21:32

And so that's what led to, you know, the the centralization of medicine to where you start to see these new drugs being released that are, are petrochemical based.

You start to see things like homeopathy and and heliotherapy be shunned away and in fact demonized over time.

21:49

This is where I think this is where the word pseudoscientific originates from.

I'm not sure on that, but there have been a lot of strategies from that period to where the the demonization of certain alternative therapies were were at play.

So again, it's it's really just a founding document, document in order to assess how to centralized medicine, how to shut down certain schools.

22:12

This also had a massive impact on minority populations as well and had a massive impact on women in relation to medicine.

So there was a lot of unfortunate things that came out of it.

There was also some good to a certain degree because it's standardized medicine.

And so any crack quackery that was present was kind of shunned away as well.

22:30

So again, like everything that it's nuanced, but I, I think that modern medicine is still dealing with the, the repercussions of what that Flex report did in in 1910.

Yeah, I mean, at this point, medicine has almost set itself up as like antithetical to natural principles, which is so shocking.

22:53

You think you would, you know, especially because it's got an evolutionary paradigm behind it.

So you think that it would say, hey, organisms are evolutionarily aligned to the conditions of the planet, therefore our medical system should be as well.

But it sets itself up almost like an opposition, you know?

23:09

Which is why it's so easy to assume malevolence from characters who you're like who you were talking about before, because it seems like almost like they have purposefully chosen not to acknowledge nature's role in health, healing, restoration, etcetera.

23:33

It it's, it's unfortunate.

I think a lot of medicine right now revolves around pathology and what I like to say to modern dermatologists, for example, who say that, you know, I've, I've cut out 1000 skin cancers in my lifetime, you should listen to me is that again, your work revolves around pathology.

23:49

That does not give me any indication as to how to prevent disease, especially skin cancers, does not give me any indication around the first principles of evolutionary and circadian biology fundamentally.

25:11

Yeah, well, like, 'cause if you have like a zero is your sort of baseline and then you have like -1 negative two -3 that's pathology.

And then you have like plus 1 + 2 + 3, let's say that's health.

If you spend all your time working in like -5 negative 4, that's your expertise.

25:26

I'm not going to go to you to, to find out how to build health.

That's not what your expertise is in.

Your expertise is in cutting out disease tissue.

So why would you know about health?

You when, how would you have time to know about health?

If you want to learn about health, you got to go to somebody who's spends their time working in health.

25:44

You know, it's sort of like we have named everything wrong, right?

So it's.

And, and that's tricky because a lot of the people who are profoundly intelligent and, and really just masters at their craft do not, do not have a single centralized medical degree to their name in regards to how to, to cultivate health.

26:00

So it's, it's a bit of a, a tricky thing to navigate because there are people who don't have any degrees that are just terrible at what they do and that they'll put you in harm's way.

But they're on the other, other side of that.

There are people who know their stuff and have worked with a large number of people and and they understand the first principles.

I want to add in one more piece and then maybe we can kind of start to delve in a little bit to some of these first principles we're talking about.

26:21

But I think another piece that gets overlooked.

In fact, I think this has been massively overlooked.

You know, you know how if you watch social media, you see sort of trends of information that come to light and then products get out, come out of those, and then suddenly some new thing comes up and you hear it again from everybody and you kind of go through these cycles.

26:38

But one of the pieces that I never see getting discussed for some reason, and it's so juicy from a social media, it might, you know, component, but like is the idea of civil time versus natural time, sundials versus clocks, You know, because essentially the idea is if I face due South, and I don't mean magnetic, but I mean like true South.

27:02

And I imagine a line that just goes straight up from the horizon all the way around to touch the North Star.

That line's called the Meridian and anything, any time the sun is before that line, so the sun is east of that line, that's anti Meridian AM.

27:17

And anytime it's past the Meridian, it's PM.

And when it's on the Meridian, it culminates there.

That's called noon.

But The thing is, if I move to the town next to me, noon's a slightly different time.

And every time I move a little bit, I get a slightly different noon.

And so everybody's time was local based on the sundial, and every day started at 6:00 AM and ended at 6:00 PM.

27:40

So it was always 6:00 to noon, noon to six.

That's every day, right?

But then with the invention of the clock, we standardize time so that what's noon for me and noon for you, the Suns in different positions.

So if I go like, oh, it's noon on my clock and I go outside and I look at the sun, the sun is almost never going to be actually at noon.

28:00

It's all like made-up civil time.

It's like a invented time system that we're using that takes us just slightly, like everything else we're talking about, just takes you slightly out of the natural rhythm.

And the sundial is a really powerful tool for teaching you about archaeoastronomy, for teaching you about circadian rhythm and all these things.

28:18

But we've kind of lost it.

And I would really love to see it come back because this sundial is such an amazing tool.

But I do think that the, the, the clock has, has impacted us tremendously as far as like how we relate to what time it actually is.

28:34

Because this whole idea of circadian, we're talking about time, right?

And it's funny because people don't even know what time it is anymore.

Yeah, I didn't even know all that stuff about the sundial, so I'm going to have to dive really deep on that because of what what you just explained there is pretty incredible to to understand within this context.

I think that, yeah, the clock has done a lot of damage because it's it's kind of divorced ourselves from the natural environment.

28:57

It's divorced ourselves from circadian timing.

And of course, that ties into how modern society is, is built in terms of like a job structure, the, the nine to five shift work, all of these various aspects to it.

But circadian timing is the glue that holds the circadian system together.

29:14

And therefore it is the glue that holds metabolic function together.

And, and that's certainly something we can dive deeper into.

But this whole rage about PST and DST, it's, it's not something that I really plant a flag on.

I I do think permanent.

Daylight savings time.

29:32

Yeah, I think permanent daylight savings time is a detriment on mass because you're just artificially shifting the clock.

And so you're getting later sun.

You're not actually changing the, the, you know, the, the time the sun comes out.

You're just artificially manipulating the clock.

29:48

And that could have some drastic consequences for people who have to abide by a nine to five drop structure and kids who are in school and what not.

But the the important thing to understand is that the sun in the light and dark cycle in general are the anchor to this.

Also, I start my day at Daybreak, then 30 minutes later I get sunrise.

30:06

Then a little bit after that I get UVA rise, then UVB rise.

And it all follows a a circadian spectral sequence that is dictated by where you are latitude wise and then what season you're in.

And that's an important thing to understand that we are essentially seasonal circadian creatures that are meant to be diurnal, meaning awake during the day and asleep at night.

30:28

So that will influence how you approach the work, whether that be in summer, spring, fall, winter.

If I hand it back to you and I go, hey man, start us at the beginning, take us through it.

What order do you want to go through this information?

I have a feeling you have a pretty good sense of how to present it.

30:44

I I think understanding this, the full solar spectrum is probably the best way to go about this.

We can touch on the biological mechanisms like opsins and mitochondria and and whatnot, but we need to understand that the full spectrum is made-up in a perfect way for circadian lined human beings.

31:03

So even at ground level, UV light, UVAUVB and UVC only makes up about 3 to 5% of the tons of the sun's total spectrum.

And so UVC doesn't even make it through the atmosphere.

So we're really only talking about UVA and UVB.

And that's an important thing to understand, especially when we get into the wavelength range synergies at play and also how that impacts people's health tangibly.

31:29

So that's UV visible light makes up around 42 to 45% of the total spectrum at ground level.

Basically think of the rainbow, you have your Reds, oranges, greens, yellows, and I, I believe firmly that every wavelength range and even every nanometer down to the nanometer length is beneficial and provides some sort of benefit for the human body.

31:50

So that's visible and then you have infrared, which makes up most of it and that's upwards of 50 to 55 plus percent.

Oh it is.

Wow.

And that's, that also accounts for the heat that we feel from the sun, right?

That would be from that infrared part of the spectrum.

Exactly, You have near infrared, mid infrared and far infrared, which each have distinct benefits and that directly ties into photobiomodulation and that blossoming form of of, of research that today in this day and age.

32:17

But we need to understand that there's a reason why UV light only makes up around 3 to 5% at ground level.

And there's also a reason why infrared is is overwhelming the entire spectrum, relatively speaking, when you.

Say at ground level.

So you mean like literally at on the ground physically?

32:35

Like when I'm on the ground as in if I as opposed to if I was up in the atmosphere, you're saying that ground level you're talking about the UV that makes it to that part of the earth?

Yeah, because altitude is a different is a different rabbit hole.

I mean UV becomes more intense the higher you go.

32:53

That is something people really need to consider, or if they're snowboarding or skiing or bathing at high altitude as.

Well, mountaineering, it would become so obvious to me.

I mean, the, the burns you'd get, like even here in Maine, we here in Maine, in New Hampshire, we have pretty small mountains, you know, mountain, Washington, 6000 feet.

33:09

It's our tallest mountain.

But still, even at 6000 feet, I notice the effects of UV up there in a way that's different down here.

And it, I mean, I can see the top of that mountain from here.

It's not, it's not a very big mountain, but it has an effect, yeah.

And even Doctor Gusterolier performed a lot of this heliotherapy, you know, patient work at altitude in Switzerland.

33:30

And so they were very high up there to in order to facilitate and allow for that stronger UVA and UVB to, to do the healing process.

But again, the key thing people miss out on is that he progressed these patients over time in order to build more melanin so that they don't burn, so that they, they don't have any negative consequences and that they developed the adaptation fundamentally.

33:54

And so even outside of that, we we talked about the ground level spectral ratios, we need to understand that there are synergistic effects between all of these wavelengths.

And so the shorter wavelengths of light that are more potent and higher energy like UV and blue are always balanced by the longer wavelengths which are still very potent, just in a different way.

34:14

And that is is a real important fundamental for a circadian system that evolved under that full spectrum.

Can we say that?

Can we say that all of these are colors?

Like some of these colors we don't see, right?

So it's like if I'm, I'm seeing waves that are getting shorter and shorter as I go from red to Violet, Violet being like, let's say the shortest color.

34:33

But when I the shortest wavelength that I can see as a color.

But, but if I had the eyes for it, I used to go around in New York City, I can remember 20 years ago, but I would make a tincture or actually like a eye drop.

So it was salt water base of belladonna.

34:50

And I would put it in people's eyes and it would dilate everyone's pupils for like 12 to 24 hours.

And you would be seeing like Violet Halos on things where you're like, oh, I'm seeing colors that I, you know, normally are being, I'm not seeing.

But if I could, I would, if I could see ultraviolet, I would start seeing colors that went past.

35:09

Or if I could see wavelengths that were longer, I could pass red.

I would be seeing infrared, right?

Or all of these colors essentially.

I I think you can break it down like that.

And of course, we're only limited by our eyes in relation to human beings.

35:24

But if you look at, I think Caribou were able to look at to, to see ultraviolet light in real time.

Snakes and lizards, I believe, are able to see infrared for these purposes.

They're even fish deep in the ocean, like very deep to where there's no sunlight that produced their own bioluminescent red in order to hunt and find fish for us.

35:47

So it's pretty incredible from the light perspective on that end.

Yeah.

OK.

So I interrupted you.

Sorry about that, but you were you were saying that all of these are important in the way that they synergistically interact with each other long and short waves.

Yeah.

And so there's not going to be a lot of evidence on this front.

36:03

But in my opinion with the the synergy and the understand that the understanding that shorter wavelengths are balanced by longer wavelengths, there is still some decent evidence at play.

And so there's one study in particular, 1998 study in the Journal of Investigative Dermatology that showed when you prime fibroblasts that produce collagen with near infrared like first and then you expose them to isolated UV, you don't see any of the cytotoxicity or cell toxicity at play that you would otherwise get with just isolated UV.

36:35

And so I'm a big advocate of avoiding isolated UV and blue at all costs for various reasons, but this is one of the fundamental ones because it's just not packaged with.

Tanning bed red When you say that, I hear tanning bed.

Exactly not an.

What about on the flip of that, everybody's into all the red light therapies now and all of this where it's like now we're kind of doing the opposite or a near infrared sauna.

36:59

Like how do you feel about when you decouple the longer wavelengths from the shorter wavelengths?

I think because they're so incredibly safe and these have so much potential for the human circadian system, there's a lot more leverage in terms of your ability to use whether it be red infrared photobiomodulation and, but but there is always a limit to it.

37:23

I think that it follows A dose curve response where or U-shaped curve response where a little bit provides a really potent response.

But if you go above that, the benefit just seems to drop off diminishing.

Returns because, you know, it does make sense.

When I think about infrared, I think, well, we have precedent.

37:42

We have however many millennia of fire exposure.

All night people are sitting around the fire, the fires pumping out, you know, infrared.

I don't see a precedent for synthetic or domesticated ultraviolet light in our history or prehistory the way we do with infrared with fire.

38:02

So.

Yeah.

And this is a really tricky subject.

So there are companies like Midolux that use the longer wavelengths to balance out the shorter wavelengths.

But again, you just have to be very intentional if you are going to use that.

I'm not an advocate of like a spur D lamp or isolated UV tanning beds because you're just providing the the shorter wavelengths that are higher energy without any of the longer wavelengths and fundamentally ties into this hormetic process.

38:28

So hormesis being the understanding that low level stress acquired consistently with proper priming, with proper recovery will create a a stronger Organism and better health.

And so we can we pause on that.

I just want to make sure the listeners are getting this hormesis.

Hormesis could also be I lift weights and damage my muscles, but I love that mug that I, that I lift weights and damage my muscles, but then I come back with a response to that stress that makes me stronger.

38:55

And or I take a, a heart, a cardiac toxin.

If I have a certain heart condition like what's found in foxglove digitalis, it's poisonous to my heart, yet in a very small dose, the hormetic response might be good for my heart.

So, so that's the kind of thing you're talking about is when something that you, you refer to it as a stress is has a negative impact, but in the right dose produces a beneficial response as the body kind of bounces back from it.

39:21

Yeah.

I mean, UVA and UVB definitely fall into the category of a hormetic stressor.

So it's AU stressor as opposed to a distressor.

But I think they're also more fundamental to that.

I mean, even you have light sensing options or, or proteins known as neuropsin in your body, which are actually UVA light sensor.

39:39

So there's, and then you think about UVAUVB creating vitamin D3.

There's obviously more fundamental rules that UV plays in general, but it it is it is the hormatic process at work.

Which makes me question why modern dermatology has billboards up about the damaging effects of UV.

39:57

But they don't do the same thing for sauna use or exercise, or eating cruciferous vegetables or any other hormatic process.

It's.

Just right one of those.

Predictions at play?

Yeah, yeah, Well, also there's quite a big industry that's been built up around all of this too.

So, you know, now there's a perverse incentive as well.

40:15

So.

OK, so I'm hearing from you then something like rather than eating, I'll say it like this.

Sometimes I'll say to an audience, hey, if I go get, if I go get some oxygen and some carbon dioxide and some nitrogen and I put all that together, I go 78% of of it is nitrogen and I go 21% oxygen and .5% carbon dioxide.

40:38

I throw in some noble gases, shake it up.

Is that fresh air?

It's like obviously not.

If I go get some pectin and some vitamin C and you know, I I get different salts and I mix all, I can't make an apple.

Out of that.

And I'm hearing from you something like that.

40:53

If I isolate out, then this goes back to what you were saying about holism versus reductionism.

If I isolate out frequencies of sunlight, I'm not making something that's an improvement on sunlight.

I'm actually making a poorer product.

41:08

Why not just get the sunlight?

I, you know, I had my buddy Ben Greenfield on recently.

We were talking about his new documentary and there's a scene, if you familiar with Ben, he's going into his office in the morning and he is like, it's a dark, blacked out room and he's like sandwiching himself and all these panels of different LE DS and everything to recreate a sunrise.

41:27

And it's like, I'm just like, bro, just go outside, you know?

But it's that kind of an idea, right?

Where it's like something because some frequency becomes popular in the same way that some nutrient does.

And then we try to take that thing isolated out from the hole.

Yeah, people would be astonished to see the parallels between, let's say, exercise and sunlight or food and sunlight.

41:46

So people think about a food complex, which with all the incredible enzymes and cofactors and nutrients and minerals, a light complex is exactly what we're talking about with full spectrum sunlight.

And so of course, ascorbic acid is not the same thing as vitamin C encapsulated in different forms within a piece of fruit or whatever.

42:06

And, and so we have to start to think along those lines to understand that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

Meaning that when you have these synergistic effects in a system of the solar system, especially in relation to the human circadian system, you, you start to get a result that is so much greater than any isolated wave life can provide.

42:28

And so it, it transcends it in a, in a real big way, not just across one or two things.

We're talking about thousands of different processes from the activation of immune cells to the reduction of inflammation, to the production of various metabolites of vitamin D.

So it's it's quite a fascinating rabbit hole in that end.

42:45

All right.

So my first big take away from this is in the way that I think about whole food or whole water, I need to think about whole light.

That's a kind of critical component of our health.

And I'm going to pass it back to you.

Make sure I don't take you out of your order here.

43:03

And yeah, so outside of that, I think again, the circadian timing is key.

That's the glue that holds all of this together.

And so that's why I'm an advocate of of waking up at Daybreak, which is essentially the start of biological day for the circadian system.

And that will typically happen around maybe 30 to 45 minutes before sunrise.

43:21

And what we need to understand associated with that is that the there's a spectral shift that happens across that day in the same way that you mentioned the sundial.

And so they're different spectrums of light that occur in order to benefit you through circadian signaling through various means.

43:39

And so Daybreak's main function is really just to get that shift in blue and Violet into the eyes first onto the skin as well, to start the process of circadian alignment.

So if let's say you wake up at Daybreak, you go outside as soon as you can, maybe within 5 to 10 minutes, you get that light.

43:57

So you're getting an increase in lux or light intensity, which has a certain set of benefits.

And then you get the blue light going into the eyes, which then hits melanopsin, which funny enough is a blue light sensor light sensing protein.

It's also found throughout your body as well.

44:13

And that gets into the intrinsically photosensitive retinal ganglion cells, which are essentially cells that are dedicated for light.

They're not even dedicated for vision at all, actually.

And that they're.

In the eye.

They're fundamentally in the eye, yeah.

44:30

And then that gets into the retinal hypothalamic tract.

That gets to the hypothalamus in the brain, which then gets to the SCN.

And the SCN is the suprachysmatic nucleus.

That's the master circadian clock.

And what's incredible is that that master hub, let's say, is what's responsible for relaying that circadian time signal through blue light to every other peripheral clock in the body.

44:53

That's you know, you have circadian clocks in your skin, your in your mitochondria and every skin cell type, every organ.

So liver function, heart function, pancreatic function, all are fundamentally dictated by that first Daybreak portion of light exposure.

45:11

What happens when somebody doesn't do that?

So let's say that they are in an apartment by the way you are when you're talking about holism and reductionism.

When I hear the word apartment, it's like apart, apart from everything else.

OK, so if I'm in an apartment and it's, you know, standard kind of I don't have a, a good Easter S facing window or something.

45:35

It's darkish in there and I just get up, flick on my lights or my TV or my computer, look at my phone.

What's happening?

What's different than if I go outside first thing in the morning?

So you are delaying the circadian system and again the timing is everything here.

45:51

And so things like insulin sensitivity will be pushed back let's say.

But the the easier way that I break it down is that insulin sensitivity will just not work as it should, meaning that you'll have worse glucose response across the day and over time that's a big deal because then you get into pre diabetic territory and all.

46:11

Again, all of these things are controlled through circadian mechanisms.

Cortisol will fundamentally dysregulate as well.

And your, your cortisol awakening response is actually light.

Is it independent of light?

So it happens right before you wake up and then once you wake up and, and you get that light exposure, that's what really boosts the cortisol awakening response to where you have the proper, the, the proper facilitation of things like blood glucose and insulin and other hormones.

46:39

And then when you have that increase in cortisol, you also have the shutdown of that circulatory melatonin that needs darkness from the pineal gland.

And so all of these hormones have a, you know, either an inverse or direct relationship with one another.

And it's a big problem if you're starting your day with fake artificial light that is more biased towards isolated blue and green.

47:02

Because if you look at the nanometer, I think it's anywhere between like 460 to 480 nanometers for blue.

You're actually kind of giving your, your body a pseudo signal that it's midday.

And so you're confusing all the circadian clocks.

And what do we know about circadian clocks is that they control function and repair of every single cell in your body.

47:22

And that's obviously a big deal because that's what everything is controlled by.

So that's that's one of the big things.

It's interesting, you know, you look at people out there and it's like they're surviving like this.

They're still, you know, their bodies are still healing, they're still recovering.

47:38

They go to the gym, they work out, they get stronger.

You know, it's like you can live like that.

But, but obviously there's like some percentage of optimization that's just lost if you don't do this.

And so it seems like, you know, people are so quick to reach for a supplement or reach for some new hack, but it's it's like this basic core alignment with what's actually happening on the earth at that time, like what's happening with all the other life forms.

48:05

You know, I'm always amazed like all these other creatures are just living right outside my door here this way.

And we're like, no, no, we haven't figured out we'll live like this.

But but essentially before it seems like before you start thinking about trying to fine tune little things that have very like that barely move the needle like something like this seems like the the first, you know, practice that you're sharing with us.

48:33

Step outside the first chance you get in the morning.

I, I think first chance you get is a is a good rule of thumb.

But again, I think the timing is very important.

So there are people in this space who will not understand the circadian first principles and so they will think that getting out at Daybreak is a micro optimization when in fact it's probably the most important fundamental in all of this work.

48:56

And so the timing of it is very, very important.

Now, if you are somebody who just literally cannot wake up at Daybreak for whatever reason, then you have to to make best with what you have.

And so wake up at sunrise, that's a second best option.

If you wake up at UVA rise, that's another best option.

49:14

But again, there are going to be the sort of you're, you're leaving stuff on the table and you're increasing the risk of certain things going wrong if you don't follow this timing to a certain degree.

And I'm not saying spend all of your time outside, you know, 3-4 hours.

49:30

I'm saying, let's maybe hit 10 to 15 minutes of Daybreak, 10 to 15 minutes at minimum at sunrise if you can at UVA rise.

The same applies there.

And then UVB rise as well.

So it's not like people are being, it's not like I'm, I'm putting out a prescription that is impossible to follow.

49:49

All all of this is actually pretty straightforward once you understand what to do and how to kind of think about it.

It's just amazing when you think about, you know, so-called primitive peoples around the world, like this is just their regular day.

I mean, you just get up and you start your day and all this is happening and you don't have to hack it or program it or, you know, schedule it.

50:09

It's just part of like, it's just called being a human who's alive on Earth.

But we've made so much complexity by such unnatural living that now we're now people are like, you're burdening me with all this.

And it's like, man, I mean, you're talking about just being a human, but OK, so.

50:25

And so sorry, but by the way, there's even been research done on those hunter gatherer tribes.

Like we know that they wake up around Daybreak consistently and they go to bed a few hours after nightfall.

And this has been replicated across multiple hunter gatherer tribes that are halfway across the world from one another with no form of communication.

50:44

And so the way you explain that is basically, yeah, that's the circadian system at work.

Through the light and dark cycle, there is a diurnal foundation upon which we're supposed to relate to the the sleeping and wake cycle.

52:14

It's also been replicated by just about anybody who slept in a tent for more than a couple days or had been somewhere where there's no electricity, right?

I mean, the the technology of electricity, you know, whatever that actually whatever that mysterious Dynamo is, has really altered the way we live.

52:31

And clearly, like if you plotted human health against, you know, a timeline that showed when we gained these technologies, it'd be pretty obvious that they haven't really contributed to our overall well-being in the ways that we think we often think that they have.

But OK, so that first part of the day, you're talking about going out at Daybreak.

52:50

You're talking about going out.

Is this so much easier?

Like where I live, it's pretty rural.

I've got Big East facing glass with a big deck.

I can just step outside first thing in the morning naked if I want.

You know, somebody else is living in Manhattan.

53:06

They got to like go into the hallway, go through like 4 flights of stairs, get out into an artificial Canyon.

Like it's challenging for some.

Like this sounds so simple to somebody living rurally.

It sounds complicated to somebody living in a really stack and pack urban type environment, I imagine.

53:23

It is, and I think that's just the the barrier to entry that comes with modern life.

Unfortunately, there are pros and cons, modern life.

And so if you care about your health to any degree that maintains the protection against chronic disease, that allows you to facilitate vitality throughout old age, these are the things that are going to be really important as a foundation.

53:44

And so, yeah, you're going to have to do what you what you can.

It does that mean opening a window in your high rise, that's better than being behind a closed window for sure, because you're allowing those longer wavelengths of light to scatter and bounce again, Light has some pretty incredible properties.

54:00

So you are getting some benefit on that end.

But ideally, I think that the rule of just go outside as soon as you wake up and and spend some time out there is undefeated because it transcends every circumstance for the most part.

And it applies to everybody and it it gives agency back to people.

54:19

That's what I want people to understand, is that you have control over this.

This is not some mysterious $20,000 biohacker coaching package that you don't have access to because you're just, you just don't have enough money, you know?

That's powerful actually.

54:34

OK.

So as the day starts progressing, is the morning the most important thing like we're front loading this or is the whole day, you know, how does the rest of the day roll out?

I will always say the, the entire picture is most important, but the, the daytime in particular, especially that Daybreak and sunrise is especially key because you're, you are essentially packaging 1001 different benefits.

55:00

You're knocking out, you know, thousands of birds with one stone by getting out at that Daybreak, by getting out at the sunrise.

For example, sunrise light is extremely rich in red and infrared.

And the literature does prove that red and infrared are able to stimulate collagen, elastin and hyaluronic acid.

55:18

So if you're somebody who's purchased a a red or infrared light mask for for skin youthful purposes, you can just achieve the same thing by getting out at sunrise even and especially if it's cold, because temperature is another zytgever that strengthens the circadian amplitude or in other words the circadian strength of that signal.

55:41

So.

Wow, temperature affects the amplitude of the signal.

How colder Better than warmer are you saying?

I want to make sure I understand that.

So cold and warm work for different benefits depending on what season you're in, but cold especially considering the early morning sunrise and in Daybreak, that's, that's just another Zygabra that you can stack on to light to food.

56:07

So an early breakfast is another powerful way to, to create circadian alignment, especially within the digestive system.

And so you can stimulate this by simply going outside or getting a cold shower early in the morning, but that's going to strengthen the signal of circadian alignment.

56:25

I have this idea always that it's very healthy to have a dog because you know, the dog takes you for a walk everyday.

But another thing the dog does, like when we get up in the morning here, we're outside first thing with the dogs, you know, it's like they, they get us outside constantly.

56:44

And so then it's like come in, have breakfast, they want to go back out, we're outside again.

So we're, a lot of this is just happening to us because we're just taking care of our dogs, you know?

So it's not even like, oh, I'm doing this for my circadian rhythm.

It's just like we're doing that already just because we have to, because otherwise we'll feel like, you know, cruel dog owners.

57:02

For some people, they need dogs in order to improve circadian health.

I mean, that's, that's what we'll get you to, to move and and do the work, you know?

All right, great.

And I just want to go back to something you said before about agency.

I think another thing is like if you are living in a stack and pack kind of an environment, a human factory farm kind of operation, like the city, you know, you got to just point your compass towards where you want to end up because it's like maybe you want to end up in the country and that might be a five year or ten year kind of thing, but you got to point your compass there.

57:29

It's not going to happen.

So you know, I think everybody, we have so much upward mobility in this culture that it's like you can kind of if you want to end up there.

But I think it was 19, I might be wrong, but I think it was 1997 where more than 50% of Earth's population went urban.

And you know, since then, you know, more and more people are flooding into the cities and so rural living is getting less and less common.

57:50

So I think that and it's kind of flip flop because it was like, it used to be like you are wealthy if you lived in the city and poor if you lived in the country.

And now it's like you got to kind of have some money to live in the country for the most part these days.

But, but OK, So what about noontime and the effects of when the sun is in the highest point that it's going to get overhead again, Noon is when the sun hits the the Meridian line and at summer solstice, it's as high as it's going to be.

58:16

And at winter solstice, it's going to be as low as it's going to be, but it's going to be still at its highest point at noon.

How important is that light?

Very important.

And this is, this is where a lot of nuance comes in because this is light UVA and UVB at its highest intensity that is often demonized by mainstream dermatology in particular.

58:34

And so after that sunrise portion, about 30 to 45 minutes later, again, this will depend on latitude, altitude, all these factors, you'll get UVA rise.

That's where UVA starts to come into the picture.

And that's where you have a gentle UVA rise to where you have a UV of one, maybe even 2.

58:52

And then about 30 to 45 minutes after that you have UVB rise.

So that early morning period is a great place for a lot of people to start sunbathing with very little downside unless you're like extremely compromised, like you have severe vitiligo.

You could potentially burn in those scenarios.

59:09

But for most people who have a healthy skin baseline and metabolic health or who are unhealthy metabolically, that's a great place to start the sunbathing practice.

And that's what we'll prime certain things like milanogenesis, which is the creation of melanin.

And melanin is fundamentally photo protective.

59:25

So it's going to work as nature's sunscreen in your favor in various ways, and it's going to build up upon itself for greater photo protection as well.

And that also applies to lighter skinned people, redheads.

I've seen some incredible at at this point, hundreds of anecdotes from lighter skinned people in redheads especially that have stopped burning through the circadian lined heliotherapy framework.

59:48

Yeah, it's very potent for people who have previously had a a pretty damaging relationship with sunlight exposure.

And that changes the game once you open those doors for those individuals.

And so as you progress towards noon, of course the UV index climb climbs up and UVA and UVB become more tense.

1:00:07

And that's where you have to be a lot more intentional and you have to be very diligent about building that adaptation of melanin so that you don't burn and so that you're able to take advantage of the the stronger, more intense UV index.

Now for lighter skinned people, and even for darker skinned people to a certain degree, there's always a limit.

1:00:26

You're not going to spend 3 to 4 hours in AUV index of 12 while the humidity is at 90%.

That's insane.

And, and there's a reason why animals seek sun and then seek shade.

It's, it's a fundamental duality.

And, and so that's what I want people to understand is that UV light is not inherently damaging to the skin or to the human body.

1:00:48

Mainstream dermatology uses flawed assumptions, meaning their entire paradigm is flawed because it's circadian divorce.

So their assessment on DNA damage from UV, their assessment of photo waging, their assessment of skin cancers in UV, all of these are are flawed in thousands of ways that can be broken down pretty easily.

1:01:06

And you need to develop a healthy relationship with UVA and UVB to where you have the adaptation.

Because if you're somebody like the modern person who uses SPF 50 chronically, who wears some sunglasses chronically, who is chronically circadian disrupted, you are quite literally creating the conditions for further photosensitivity, meaning that you aren't developing the adaptation.

1:01:28

And so you are a weaker Organism over time and you'll never develop a healthy relationship.

I want to jump in on that really quick.

So you're, so I'm hearing sun, excessive sunblock, sunglasses.

This is like I'm, I'm using crutches to walk and my leg muscles atrophy.

1:01:47

And then I put the crutches down and I'm like, see, I need the crutches.

I can't walk.

And, and you're like, no, you, it's because you haven't slowly built up the musculature to be able to handle that load.

And you're sort of saying, similarly, if I'm using sunblock or I'm using sunglasses, I'm shielding myself from that and therefore I'm, I'm further weakening my ability to tolerate it.

1:02:08

Then if I go without it, I go, see, I got burned.

And that's because I've created those conditions.

Yeah, that's really the root of it.

But there's the problem is that there are also other problems that manifest out of that because they're reductionist interventions that don't consider the circadian system.

1:02:24

And so with SPFI mean the lowest level of SPF, SPF15 blocks upwards of 90% of UVB.

Again, UVB is the only wavelength range that can make the vitamin D3 conversion, and that's even more problematic when you consider most people are using SPF 50, which blocks 98 to 99% of UVB.

1:02:41

OK, so you block.

UVB is how I'm UVB is how we convert vitamin D.

But which frequency of light, which wavelength of light is responsible for melanogenesis for for a tan?

1:02:58

It's it's not really a wavelength per SE, I would say it's more about the wavelength range or Spectra.

So I consider UVA and UVB, both forms of UV, to be important to that process.

OK, got it.

There's some distinction that I forgot to.

1:03:14

I mean UVB I think creates fundamentally the the tan and then UVA oxidizes the melanin that already pre exists within the skin.

So they work together in in more ways than one.

A little side note here, I'm kind of curious, just your opinion on no, we're living in that era of like people are confusing the facsimile of things for the thing, right?

1:03:33

So it's like you see all these guys on T who who we used to call it steroids.

Now they just feel like don't know it's a supplement and everybody looks jacked, but they're not necessarily strong or like, you know, women plumping their faces up and Botox in their face.

1:03:50

And you end up with like trying to create this look, but you don't have it's not the real thing.

You know, I'm seeing so much of that and now I'm seeing people injecting Melano tan too and getting these tans that aren't real tans.

I'm just curious your thoughts on that.

Do those tans work as tans are?

1:04:06

Do they, are they photo protective?

And, and what just what do you think about this, this idea of sunless tanning that we're seeing now?

Yeah, I mean, I have a a philosophical problem with it because you're just divorced from the circadian perspective.

And so you're not really doing, again, like the full spectrum is not just about a tan in the same way that vitamin D is not just about.

1:04:25

So there, there's that point to it.

We do need to understand that it is, it is still fundamentally photo protective.

So these people who are lighter skinned, they're, they're like Oompa Loompas practically.

They're able to spend more time in the sun.

But again, like what are the 2nd and 3rd order?

1:04:41

Concept.

Of that like what happens in a lighter skinned person when you just stimulate melanocyte function to the extreme will that contribute to Melanoma will that protect you from it I just don't know there's.

Nobody knows yet, but it does.

1:04:56

So actually though, if I'm hearing you right, though, theoretically, like, let's say somebody was like going to go to Australia from Scotland and they could potentially art develop that kind of a tan and then get there and have the photo protective benefits of it.

So that maybe there's some tool use there.

1:05:14

And that I've never thought about that.

I just, I, I'm watching folks around me take that and get these tans where they, they, they look absurdly dark.

I mean, it's just, it's amazing.

Actually, I saw my brother in a photograph from our gym recently and I was teasing him.

I was like, because there was a what, there was a black dude right next to him And it was like, wow, you guys are like the same amount of melanin.

1:05:34

And my brother's a white guy, you know what I mean?

And it was like he the level of dark he got from it blew my mind because he's not out in the sun that much.

Yeah.

And and that's that's definitely I think more detrimental if you're somebody who uses MT1 or MT2 irrespective of the side effects that are are potentially there.

1:05:53

Again, it's taking away from full spectrum sunlight for some people.

You can make the argument that it also places people in more of that full spectrum because they have better photo protective capability.

So just depends on the individual really.

OK.

But so not a specific wavelength that's causing the tan, it's UV generally speaking.

1:06:12

And then I wanted to just touch on, you've brought it up a couple times.

Could you explain what window glass how it interacts with solar light?

Very nuanced conversation that even modern dermatology admits is a real problem because they don't recommend that you get sunlight through glass, but for some reason they just don't understand that it's the spectral shift in the filtered sunlight as opposed to the sunlight itself that is.

1:06:39

Right, right.

And so, yeah, this depends on the type of glass.

There are many types of glass out there that change the spectrum in different ways.

But low emission glass is the one that we we really want to focus on because that's the one society is obsessed with.

That's what all the modern cars have for the most part, the new buildings.

1:06:56

And the primary reason why they use this is for energy efficiency purposes.

So if you're in an apartment building or an office building, they block the heat component, which is the infrared.

They have multiple coatings on that low E glass that prevents the heat from coming in.

Therefore, you don't have to turn on the air conditioning, which would then raise cost.

1:07:14

So it's all about energy efficiency.

It doesn't take circadian health or skin health or any of this, this stuff into account.

And that's a problem because if you look at low E glass, it will basically dramatically reduce the red and infrared, which are the balancing forces.

It will pretty much block the UVB depending on what situation you're in, whether you're in a car, windshield, driver side, so forth.

1:07:38

And it will basically leave UVA and blue light untouched, which are shorter, higher energy wavelengths that are very damaging in isolation, especially together.

And so modern dermatology brings up the truck driver case study.

1:07:55

This is a one of one case study where this truck driver drove a truck for 28 years.

One side of his face completely damaged, relatively speaking, to the other side.

And I attribute that to the fact that he had his windows up for the most part.

I think if you look at most truck drivers, their habitual thing is to leave the window up as opposed to down.

1:08:14

And that's problematic when it's exposed to your skin chronically because you are essentially selecting or manipulating these wavelengths to where all of the mechanisms within the skin are taking a huge hit over time.

And so UVB is important for skin health.

1:08:30

It's important for vitamin D that it's it's also been tied to skin texture and elasticity.

If you reduce the red and infrared, then you're not getting as much of that collagen, elastin, hyaluronic acid signal to create youthful skin components.

And then you're damaging or accelerating photo damage through that UVA and blue combination because that is just, it's no bueno for melanocytes, fiberglass rinse cells, so forth.

1:08:57

So if you were to ask a typical dermatologist who does, who is divorced from circadian, all the circadian information, if you ask them what frequency of light is most damaging to the skin, they're going to say UVA, correct?

That's typically what they would.

1:09:13

Yeah, but funny enough, they probably won't mention the nanometer wavelength.

OK, but but that's when I if I was just going to Google it.

It's like UVA is causing the damage and you're saying that these windows let the UVA through.

So in other words, the the part that in isolation is the most damaging to skin is getting through that window.

1:09:31

Also, if you're sitting in front of the window all day getting sun, it feels good.

It still feels good.

You're like, oh, this feels nice.

You might even think, oh, this is healthy.

But what's happening is you're not getting that whole light anymore.

You're getting like processed light through the the glass and you're getting the parts that are sort of more damaging to the skin without the parts that would balance that to keep it from damaging your skin.

1:09:54

So you have a higher chance of skin damage, accelerated skin aging, even maybe Melanoma because you're not getting the full whole sunlight.

Yes, so.

You're, you're getting that UVA and blue light in isolation on the skin.

And again, the, the thing that holds this together is the fact that you are just disentangling it from that full spectrum in the synergistic relationships that these wavelengths have to one another.

1:10:19

And so that's the core of the problem.

The problem is not the light itself, it's the context in which the light is received, which is why things like tanning beds or isolated blue light from conventional lighting sources is so damaging.

And that that's what I want people to understand.

And so the dermatologist will say that UVA is UVAA stands for aging and then UVBB stands for burns.

1:10:42

But again, like they're, they're epistemological assumptions are so wrong because they're using in their primary literature the isolated UV on nocturnal rodents that are not designed for UV or in vitro, which is disconnected from the complexity of the skin barrier.

And so that's another fun thing we can get into.

1:10:59

But yeah, it's just, it's just something, not something they appreciate.

I want to also quickly, while we're talking about glass, I want to talk about sunglasses.

I, man, I hate them.

I, I'm, I'll say this and people will bring up a bunch of images of me wearing them because I'm fishing, fishing polarized glasses are really very helpful as an angler to, you know, catching fish.

1:11:23

But outside of that context, man, I just can't stand them.

And I've never really liked them.

But you, there's so many people who just seem like they can't go without them.

They always have them on the back of their hat.

Even if they're not wearing them, they're on the back of their neck.

They're always, they're on the whatever little lanyard thing, the Crokies who just, I don't know, there's this sense of like there's something that people think is so cool about them.

1:11:46

And whenever I see them, I think like your talent.

I don't know.

I don't know the science.

I'm very curious to hear from you, but I'm always like, you're telling yourself it's cloudy out, I think.

You know, you're blocking the lux, which is the light intensity, you're blocking large parts of the spectrum, which is a big problem because the eyes are the gateway to the circadian system for circadian signaling, for hormone production, for neurotransmitter production.

1:12:09

And there's a lot of biological mechanisms to support all of that.

But I think it's a, it's kind of in line with the fact that in in a similar way where you use SPF 50 chronically, you're not developing the adaptation.

You're doing the very same thing with sunglasses used chronically because the eyes are built for peripheral full spectrum exposure and so things like intrinsically photosensitive retinal ganglion cells.

1:12:31

The melanopsin or blue light sensor within them is quite literally designed to receive bright light during the day for photo adaptation, to allow your eyes to adapt different light levels in the environment.

And even further to that point, you have dopamine that's produced in the retina that also further facilitates that photo adaptation.

1:12:51

So when somebody says they have sensitive eyes, quote UN quote sensitive eyes, for the most part, it's not genetic.

It's just the fact that you are blocking that Hilux signal and you're down regulating dopamine from the retina, you're down regulating melanopsin function.

1:13:09

And as a result, that's a side effect of it.

I I'm my eyes, I feel kind of sensitive.

I'm a squinter out there in the sun, but I just squat, just squint.

I don't know, I'd rather just squint.

Is there any macular degeneration or anything like that that's been associated with sunglasses at this point with with sunglasses or sunlight?

1:13:29

Sunglasses like have has there been any studies?

To show that there are long term negative effects from sunglasses outside of just impacts on circadian rhythm?

Certain.

Probably not I.

Haven't come across them.

I I wish somebody had the incentive to run those studies, by the way.

1:13:46

Yeah, but yeah, Macular.

Degeneration and and all of these.

Different eye manifestations I think for the most part can be traced to chronic circadian disruption as opposed to the full spectrum itself inherently.

And that makes sense when you start to understand that the eyes are circadian organs.

1:14:02

And so the opsins, the light sensitive proteins, the mitochondria, the melanin in your eyes, all of these are geared around getting that peripheral full spectrum exposure.

And this makes sense from an evolutionary sense.

1:14:17

Like we didn't have sunglasses.

There were certain indigenous tribes that had some pretty cool, like sunglass type of of, you know, like the Inuit slit things that they'd make, yeah.

But I mean, that's because you're out on snow fields and you're still getting light through those.

1:14:33

They're not truly blocking out light, they're just limiting it.

Exactly.

And even like a Doctor of the Cerolier.

In his early work they use sunglasses, but they weren't modern sunglasses.

They were actually glasses made out of quartz.

And quartz is one of those few mediums that allows the full spectrum unadulterated pretty much through really because because quartz.

1:14:55

And.

Glass the only.

Difference is structure at a molecular level, right?

Quartz is silica dioxide but in a crystalline form, and glass is silica dioxide in an amorphous form.

That's why glass shatters, but quartz breaks along cleavage lines and so same, that's interesting.

1:15:12

Same ingredients, different structure.

That's a kind of a powerful What's that?

The hole is greater than the sum of his parts.

Exactly what about?

OK, so as a.

Podcaster when you bring guests on, I'd say a full 25% of them show up wearing those orange glasses.

1:15:28

You know, everybody's blue block in these days.

I've not gotten into that.

I every time I've tried them, I've been like, it's cumbersome to me.

I'm like, what about the light coming in from the side?

I, I just doesn't make sense to me and then I worry now I'm looking through an artificial media.

I notice you're not wearing them.

I don't know if you wear them at night.

1:15:44

I'm just curious your thoughts on that.

That's become quite a big.

I mean, you know, it's such a huge hack now that you just see people wearing them.

Sometimes I'm like, it's the middle of the day.

Why do you have those on?

Yeah, it it's an interesting rabbit hole, I think.

For for me personally, I don't wear the wear them during the day.

1:16:01

I certainly wear them at night.

I'm very I'm practically religious about that.

Using the dark orange more specifically, I think the red is a bit too intense to where you can't see.

I even use the dark orange for driving purposes as well to prevent the LED.

Helen Some people can do that, some people can't.

1:16:18

So just be careful in that end.

But the clear lens blue blockers are pretty much useless.

They're not going to do anything for you in terms of blocking shorter wavelengths.

The yellow ones are a step ahead in terms of blocking some blue.

Those are primarily used for the daytime if somebody wants to.

1:16:33

But I find that with a consistent sun practice, your body basically holds on to that circadian signal.

It, it allows for proper mitochondrial function and you just get the benefits without having to go to the extent of wearing blue blockers inside.

1:16:53

And so there's, there's almost like some, some compound effect to it.

Like, you know, my dad had macular degeneration.

He wanted to be a pilot but couldn't because of that condition.

So, and my mom so wears reading glasses to this day.

And so there, there is a genetic component to eyesight.

But I have 2016 vision at 30 years old.

1:17:10

So I'm curious to to be that sort of proof of work into the future to show that things like full spectrum exposure, red and infrared peripherally into the eyes to support the mitochondria is healthy and that, you know, you don't have to deal with poor eyesight for the rest of your life.

1:17:27

In fact, circadian eyesight regeneration is something that I've I've touched on quite deeply and I've seen a lot of anecdotes of people who've improved eyesight to some degree.

Do you have any thoughts for somebody who chronically wears?

Prescription glasses and or contact lenses, because I would assume that those as a media form filter light to some degree as well.

1:17:47

Should those people be exposing their eyes to some of the sunlight?

Obviously not staring into the sun, but should they be exposing their eyes to some of the sunlight without those on from time to time?

Should they make a practice of that?

Yeah, as much as possible.

I'll go a level.

Deeper or further and say that if you want to potentially regenerate the eyes to some degree and improve vision, then I would make sure to implement that as much as possible.

1:18:14

And so I, if somebody comes to me with contact lenses, I usually tell them to graduate from that to full prescription reading glasses because it's just easier to take off.

And so you don't have to deal with the, the whole process of taking contact lenses off.

1:18:31

And also you don't have other issues like the forever chemicals in a lot of contact lenses, standard contact lenses also block I think UV and blue.

Most of them today definitely block UV, but I'm not sure on the blue end.

And so you are also getting that alteration of the full spectrum, which I think has some, some pretty profound impacts on.

1:18:53

Yeah.

OK, so I left us.

Off at noon time and got us onto this glass conversation.

And I just want to give space to talk about what's happening with light in the second-half of the day.

Yeah, so after the highest.

Intensity, UV and UVB, then you crescendo into evening time where again you have more of a gentle off ramp in a similar way that you have that gentle on ramp from Daybreak and sunrise forward.

1:19:19

And so heading into the evening time, this is really just about getting lower UV index.

It's it's just about getting full spectrum exposure as much as you can, grounding as much as possible with that, because I do believe that grounding plays a, a big role in, in this whole sunbathing practice.

1:19:36

In other words, having having contact with the ground.

Electrically, yeah, people talk about the photoelectric effect.

You know you.

Produce more, you get more free electrons from the negatively charged Earth.

And that theoretically should help you improve your photon capture, so to speak, because photoelectric effect is a combination of photons, electrons, so forth.

1:19:58

Like like you're photosynthesizing like a plant a little bit.

Yeah, there, there's been some controversy around that, the human.

Photo metabolism and all that.

But it's, I, I think there's some real element to that to some degree.

But even time for me is just about a relaxation practice trying to get sunset.

1:20:15

And once you head into the, the deeper parts of sunset, that's where you started to, to get into the territory of nightfall.

And so the sunset portion is a wind down period, whereas the sunrise portion is a, a lift up period.

1:20:31

You know, you have the cortisol awakening response.

But during that sunset portion, you start to see the increase in melatonin.

And then when nightfall occurs, that's where I enter dark mode.

And that's where the dark part of the light and dark cycle kicks in, which is very important for things like DNA repair, circadian clocks for endogenous melatonin, which is anti cancer, anti-inflammatory, antiviral.

1:20:55

And that's where you see darkness until pretty much early bedtime.

And then you repeat the process full on.

I have this.

Thing that keeps coming up for me when I talk to folks about darkness at night and that's that it's not dark at night.

1:21:12

And so I'm, I would love to get your feedback on this because, you know, from my perspective, if I'm sleeping outside, like it's just not dark at night and then, you know, it's, it's darker, there's moonlight, there's sunlight, and then that follows the arrhythmic, you know, wave of full moon to new moon.

1:21:29

So obviously it's much darker on a new moon night and then it's much lighter on a full moon.

I mean, so bright on full moon nights that I see my shadow or can, can operate pretty well in the evening.

So, so I'll have people tell me that I should black out my windows.

I live, like I said, rurally on acreage.

1:21:46

You know, my bedroom windows face E&E and South.

So it's really nice at sunrise.

Like that sounds right in my face.

If I'm in my bed, you know, it's like right there.

I know it's sunrise, but so I'm being woken up by that good light.

But when I'm sleeping, you know, I see the light of the stars and the light of the moon with a southern facing window.

1:22:04

If it's a full moon, that light's shining in the room.

What are your thoughts on that?

Do you just, yeah, I'll just leave that hanging.

Like what are your thoughts on all that?

And how important is it that it is truly blacked out versus natural light?

I do not have a problem with Starlight.

1:22:22

Moonlight because those of.

From the evolutionary standpoint, those are obviously going to be circadian appropriate light sources by the mere nature of how human beings have developed over time on the planet.

And so if you look at even moonlight, for example, or fire light, I think fire light ties into this as well.

1:22:41

They are pretty, they're relatively bright on the eye, but if you look at the Lux, it's an incredibly dim.

So it almost has this local effect, more so where the the surrounding area immediate to you is, is pretty brightly lit compared to your eye.

1:22:59

But if you look at the lux, it's like 12345 lux.

And anything under 10 lux at night is really the ideal that we want to hit in order to prevent endogenous melatonin suppression.

So I find the Moonlight Starlight Firelight to be incredible in that regard because you can use it as much as you want and it's not going to impact the circadian system negatively at all when I'm in bed at night.

1:23:23

It's an opportunity for me to read.

I don't always have, you know, as much time during the day to read as I'd like.

I use a headlamp with a red light.

I'm curious how you feel about that.

Like I said, it's like an important window of time.

You know, my wife's asleep.

1:23:38

I can, you know, read till I can't kind of a thing.

I fall asleep.

How do you feel about red light at night for that kind of a purpose?

I like it if you don't get it from.

Panels, because I think panels like photobiomodulation light therapy panels can be pretty bright.

1:23:57

So could that potentially disrupt melatonin production?

Maybe I, I think it could just because of the the light intensity to come off of those things.

But when it comes to, you know, red, infrared, amber, anything from like an incandescent bulb or firelight or even like a company such as Hugo who has those like clip on lights, book lights that you can use.

1:24:21

Those are fantastic because they fall into the the light wavelength ranges that won't suppress melatonin.

And so the most important thing is that you want to avoid the isolated blue and the isolated green.

Now, what you'll notice in firelight is that you have a little bit of green and blue, maybe even purple.

1:24:37

But it's not nearly.

It's not.

Yeah, it just doesn't matter because.

It's so balanced.

By the infrared and in the low, low, yeah, OK, is there.

Anything that I'm leaving out, I feel like I would love to have a whole other conversation with you at some point about selecting lighting for our homes, about interacting with technology and the light that's coming off of that.

1:25:01

But for the sake of understanding this conversation today, which has been about sort of how to not just optimize, but almost like reactivate our circadian alignment, Have we left anything out?

We've talked sort of sunrise to, to bedtime.

1:25:19

I I think the relationship.

In the context around UV is very important.

So if you're somebody who wants to get adequate UVA and UVB and you want to start the circadian sunbathing practice, you need to be diligent about the circadian alignment.

Because if you look at the, excuse me, if you look at the research, it's relatively new research, but circadian alignment is the dividing line between whether UV gets integrated properly into the human body or whether it goes on to create these DNA mutations from DNA lesions is whether you're circadian aligned or circadian disrupted.

1:25:55

Sorry, I didn't hear that one more time.

I think I heard that.

Right, but say that one more time for me.

So basically the dividing line between whether UV.

Light becomes integrated properly into the body to where it becomes beneficial or whether it becomes, you know, at the scene of damage to where you have adna lesion skin cancer.

1:26:14

We're talking about melanomas, skin cancers.

OK, yeah, because Adna lesion itself is the.

Low level damage UV is supposed to create.

That's a natural by product.

You have 6 four photo products.

You have thiamine dimers, cyclobutane, pyrimidine dimers.

1:26:31

The human body is supposed to create these things in response to UV light for hormetic purposes.

But the problem is modern dermatology conflates adna lesion with adna mutation and to make that jump you need to have the circadian controlled repair systems like nucleotide excision repair fail completely in order to go from that lesion to a mutation.

1:26:53

So This is why I'm such an advocate of circadian alignment, because if you're somebody who gets high intensity UV but you don't prime at sunrise or get Daybreak and you don't get dark nights, you're quite literally creating the conditions to fail circadian repair.

1:27:11

And when repair becomes more apparent than the when damage overwhelms repair, then you get the conditions for DNA mutations.

And that's what we want to avoid because that would increase the risk of cancers of any kind, especially skin cancers.

1:27:28

So so a great recipe for skin.

Cancer would be like, I get two or three hours of like, noontime's sun exposure, but I also wake up and spend the whole morning in a dark apartment and I spent the evening staring into light boxes of blue light.

1:27:46

But I go out and I get that intense midday sun every day.

Like, that's my recipe for skin cancer, essentially.

Yeah.

I mean there, there's going to be more to it, but people do need.

To appreciate that UV is a double edged sword and so it's all about the context.

I think that in a circadian aligned human evolutionary appropriate environment, UV light does not cause cancer whatsoever.

1:28:07

In fact, it's almost purely protective against it because you're in a you're allowing the circadian system to work as it should.

Repair is balanced with damage.

You're making melatonin, you're making vitamin D appropriately.

It's only the modern lifestyle that creates the conditions for UV to become to jump from AU stressor to a distressor.

1:28:29

In the same way that if you exercise chronically but you don't get any sleep, you're of course going to break down your body and cause problems, right?

Like water can hydrate me, but it can also drown me.

So it's a it's a double hedged sword, while it's really powerful.

Are there any, is there any books that you recommend listeners, that you're like, oh, this is the book on this topic.

1:28:50

This is like my number one.

Or is this something, because I'm kind of getting the impression you've compiled a lot of this, especially, it sounds like, by looking at the research that's in the medical literature, not, you know, but is there any references that you're like, oh, if you want to learn more about it, I'd recommend you go here.

Yeah.

1:29:07

There's no one book that's going to cover it comprehensively.

That might be an opportunity for myself in the future.

Sounds like it.

Writing a book sounds overwhelming to be honest, so.

We'll see.

It's I can already tell it's in your heads and if that you know.

Just from the outside, it's there.

Yeah, we'll we'll see.

Hopefully I can I can definitely make.

1:29:23

Something along those lines.

Book coach, yeah, for sure.

I would say anything from John OTT JOHNOTT is a great start.

He studied light in relation to mental health and a whole bunch of other sort of sub sub sub topics.

1:29:41

The what's the There was an ophthalmologist in the early 1900s, Doctor Fritz Holwich, Professor Fritz Holwich, He was an ophthalmologist who studied light in relation to cataracts.

He removed cataracts from different species, including human beings.

1:29:58

And lo and behold, when the light gets unfiltered into the eyes peripherally, it had a massive endocrine effect on the body to where it impacts melatonin, cortisol, so forth.

I would say outside of that, there's a a good new book called In Defense of Sunlight that basically put puts chinks in the armor of mainstream dermatology and and kind of reassesses our understanding of skin cancers in in the relationship that UV light has to that.

1:30:26

I believe Rowan Jacobson is the author.

But yeah, a lot of the books are old, to be honest, but there's not many to come around.

And where do people access more of your work?

Because I I know your work from Instagram, but you have a sub stack as well.

Yeah, the The Circadian Classroom is the publication on sub.

1:30:44

Stack so all of that can be found on my Instagram or X at ZK Daharge ZAIDKDAHHAJ and a lot of it's like bi directional.

So if you're on the X or you're on the Instagram, you'll most of the links.

I love your Instagram page the the kind of memes that you publish.

1:31:01

Are really fantastic useful and nice to look at actually.

So it's a nice curation on your page.

Also, do you want to kind of plug your program because I see that you have that as well.

Yeah, so I do work with people one.

On one, but I've kind of moved away from it just because I, I've liked the the sort of style of the course.

1:31:21

So I have a course called the 8020 course and that's really the thing that I've poured a lot of my research and, and kind of philosophy on circadian health into and it's helped quite a bit of people.

But that can also be found on on all social platforms.

And that covers everything from the philosophical, the historical, the scientific, and it's also practical.

1:31:40

So it, it's really designed to cater to beginners, to intermediates, to experts.

I just really want to hit all bases with that.

And it's constantly being updated as well with new information.

So if somebody gets the course, they get all the lifetime updates as well.

There's these moments I.

1:31:55

Have where I like moments of clarity, where I think how insane it is that like truly insane it is that.

The world needs a.

Voice like yours to tell them that the sun is OK.

It's just like, how did we get here?

You know, it's shocking.

Like like I feel that about my own self to be like, it's important to connect with nature.

1:32:12

It's like, wow, that should be a major wake up call.

And yet the world really truly needs a voice like yours.

I just want to say I've learned so much talking to you today.

I really appreciate all the work that you've put into learning all of this and you know you obviously have a mind to retain it and to process it and to share it back.

1:32:31

So great work and I just really appreciate your time today.

Thank you.

Thank you, Daniel.

It was a very fun time and hopes hopefully we can.

Do Part 2.

I would really like that actually.

All sorts of stuff.

Maybe Part 3 as well.

Thanks, Dan.

Thank you.