Transcript: The Trap of Project-Self — Ben Greenfield #010

0:00

You can only do so much in terms of the meaning that you bring to the world when it's just all about the jawline and the ABS and the testosterone levels and the.

Cavs, you can't hack your way to wholeness, right?

Where is real fulfillment found?

Is it in success?

Is it in money?

0:16

Is it in sex or power?

Is it in the simple things like family faith?

Love that cheesy Disney S responsive like look at what's inside like that's that's what's really important.

But it it is actually true.

You go through life, make mistakes, fall, realize your character's not quite what you thought it was, and then you look at the life of Christ, the way he walks through it.

0:39

He's got all this fame, all this attention.

People are following him everywhere and he just keeps demonstrating service.

First of all, I'm going to get this out of the way.

I do not make the bed when I get up in the morning.

Guys on tea and he doesn't even make the bed that's.

That's going to be the only clip for this whole podcast.

0:56

Ben does not make the bed.

My guest today is Ben Greenfield, who probably needs no introduction.

He's a globally renowned biohacker and an edgy, controversial, but trusted voice in the realm of self optimization and human performance.

1:12

He's garnered international acclaim as a New York Times bestselling author, speaker, podcaster, and human performance expert, even gaining the title of America's top personal trainer.

But now, after two decades of pioneering extreme biohacking and longevity protocols, he's confronting the personal costs of trying to attain physical perfection in his new documentary, Boundless.

1:38

The man who became human.

Ben Greenfield, welcome to the show.

What's up, man?

It's really good to see you.

It's.

Been a while.

It's been like a little while.

Like a long while.

Yeah, Yeah, it's great to see you.

And I was thinking back, it's probably, you know, I was thinking back to the Neil Strauss event that we both spoke at.

1:55

And I think that had to have been 12 or 13 years ago now.

I've been with my wife 11 years.

I wasn't with her then, so.

Wasn't that like like the the vegan tattooed Daniel?

Like pre hunting, pre foraging, everything.

2:10

Not vegan but definitely pre pre hunt.

Yeah pre wild fed for.

Sure, Yeah, yeah, I have selective memory.

Anyways, I did it it it seems like you've come a long ways since.

Then a lot's happened for me for sure.

I would say the same thing about you, man.

I just watched your new film the other day and so I got a little bit of a sense of kind of your journey as well.

2:31

And I wanted to say that it's funny how we're really different, but there's this parallel.

I think that we both were very deep into Project Self.

And I took it the, like, primitive natural route, and you took it the, like, more technological kind of biohacking route.

2:49

And we both have, I think, arrived at a really similar place.

But tell us a little bit about the film, because it's coming out soon.

Yeah, I mean, like premieres, I think in LA next Friday.

3:05

You obviously got one of the secret sauce early hidden links.

This film kind of took me by surprise actually, because there were people following me around with a video camera, but I was not the creative.

I was not directing.

3:21

I was not producing.

All I knew was that behind the scenes, Caleb Applegate, the director, wanted to tell my story and more specifically, tell my story of being, as you just alluded to, like really dialed into the human optimization scene and at what many people might perceive to be the pinnacle of that world.

3:46

And the realization that I was, you know, climbing the wrong mountain, as some might say, or had my priorities, you know, back ass words and the kind of kind of like the big shake up moment in the film.

4:04

Not to spoiler alert, this for too many people is nearly losing, you know, kind of paradoxically, everything that I that I thought I was working for, right?

Like my family, my wife, my kids, my legacy, all of that was kind of slipping away as I was becoming like, you know, fit and popular and making money and building the business and doing all the things, you know, justifying to myself that I was, you know, sending home the paycheck, you know, out slaying the Dragons.

4:34

And yeah, you you kind of almost don't realize.

And I don't know if you if you've experienced anything like this.

Daniel how much like really simple happiness and fulfillment and this feeling of just like, dude, this, this feels so right and everything feels so good when you shift the priorities and you basically put faith and family 1st.

5:00

And that, that's what that's that's the story that the film tells.

If you had handed me back when I last saw you at that conference, let's say if you had handed me a quiz and the quiz had like a multiple choice question about this and it was like, you know, where is real fulfillment found?

5:17

Is it in success?

Is it in money?

Is it in sex or power?

Is it in the simple things like family, faith, love out of.

I would have selected the correct answer, but it wasn't reflected in how I was living.

And I had to kind of hit a rock bottom to really come to that.

5:33

I was thinking this morning about how you and I come from the first generation of, you know, now we call everybody influencers.

I'm sure when you started, that word didn't exist.

You know I I cringe when I call myself that.

It's my favorite word.

Thank you for using it.

But you know.

5:49

We were That and biohacker are probably my two favorite words.

Well, you know, I, I, I got A tag line for your film because it's something I've said many times over the years.

You can't hack your way to health or you can't hack your way to wholeness, right?

But, but yeah, we were that first generation who we had these new tools that allowed us to build careers off of our passion and interest in a way that wasn't really available before.

6:14

I can say for myself, I wasn't prepared for the kind of like the fame and the, the quick fame and the money and the success that came from that.

I didn't really have the tools to handle that.

And so I think the last time we saw each other, I was really close to my rock bottom moment and eventually did kind of crash and burn a bit.

6:37

And I've been, you know, it took me about 10 years to really, you know, you, you kind of joked about with Wild Fed really that was like my time in the wilderness rebuilding myself.

So I say all that, that when I watched your film, I was like, I could really relate.

I felt like, oh, I see me and this guy had a parallel, different, but parallel journey.

6:55

And I wanted to really congratulate you on the vulnerability.

Yeah, thanks.

Yeah, it, and again, like it wasn't really a story that I'd ever planned on putting together and telling, at least at that level.

Like, like my, I guess my approach was I wrote this book called Boundless Parenting kind of after a lot of this happened.

7:13

And after I really like reconnected and doubled down with family and marriage and children.

And like I took a deep dive into family branding, legacy building, forming a trust, passing on both generational wisdom and generational wealth and packaged all of that together and put it in a book.

7:32

And still, you know, occasionally talk about that, you know, at conferences or two friends or two families.

And that was what I kind of thought was the the, the only real work I would wind up doing when it comes to talking a little bit about this concept to people.

7:51

And then, yeah, I mean, Caleb, who's also my best friend who lives like 20 minutes from my house and runs all my companies, he surprised me with this film on my birthday.

He was like, he just kept telling him I'm working on stuff behind the scenes.

So my birthday was like 6 months ago.

8:08

And we sat down and one of my friends, Zac Efron, who's, you know, he's a big Hollywood guy.

He was in town.

And he and me and Caleb and my sons and my wife and a couple of their friends, we just like rented out a movie theater downtown to like screen it and watch it.

8:24

And, you know, Zac and I both went out to dinner with Caleb afterwards.

And we were like, dude, we need you to do something with this.

This is This is great because.

I thought you might say like, dude, no way, I'm not airing this.

What, are you crazy?

No, like I, I thought it really surprised me, like, like, you know, 'cause I'm used, dude, I'm just like, I don't know if I'm lazy or what, but I'm just used to like rinky dinky YouTube videos, you know, here's me on the stability ball, you know, with, with my, with my foam roller and my acupressure mat, you know, showing you how to fix your hip flexors.

8:56

This, this is just like, you know, something totally different.

I mean, you saw it.

And so, yeah, it, it was in December, we're talking in July.

It was in December of 2025 that we decided, hey, we, we should do something with this.

And so, yeah, we're bringing it on the road show to a few cities over the next few weeks, and then we'll start streaming it.

9:20

Well, I'm really impressed because again, I, I sort of thought to myself, I mean, the first half of it, you could kind of it rolls almost like a humble brag.

You know, you're like, OK, I got to learn a lot about you and your career because I didn't know all the things you had done and accomplished.

And it was great to see all that.

9:36

You know, at the same time, I found myself getting almost, like, internally irritated because I'd spent so much time trying to optimize myself in my own ways.

And it was like bringing up all of those.

Yeah.

Memories for me.

And it was like, oh, God.

You know, I thought I would look back on all that part of my life really fondly, but now there was this, like, emptiness in me that I didn't know about at the time that now it's real cringe when I look back on it.

10:00

Yeah.

And so all of a sudden, you know, the film kind of takes a shift, which, you know, if somebody watches the, the trailer, they'll understand what I'm talking about.

But it then it goes into sort of, you know, how you had all that happening, but at the expense of your family, at the expense of what's really important in life.

10:17

And I was just impressed that you would actually, Erin, I, I've somebody who's come out kind of with some vulnerability over the years as well.

And I know it's just difficult for people to do that.

How was it for your family to to see that you guys were going to share this part of your story?

10:33

You know, stuff that I guess most, you just never know what's going on in families.

You know, you never know what's going on in couples.

People don't share everything.

And so you see the polished exterior.

You don't always see what's going on behind the scenes.

Was it was it scary to 1st come out with that?

Well, first of all, our family is so tight.

10:50

I mean, so tight.

But you know, when when my wife I almost, you know, got divorced and some of that story is told in the film, we really reverted to like radical transparency and radical honesty with each other big time and implemented that with the whole family.

12:16

I was thinking about this last night.

So my pastor, Doug Wilson was talking about the relationship of, of teenagers with their parents.

And he's like 11.

Good metric of, you know, whether you're doing a good job connecting with your teenagers is, you know, if mom and dad are just hanging around in the bedroom at night and, you know, if they just wander in there and want to hang out and talk with you guys and just like, just like be with you in the evening.

12:43

And my sons were off at dinner last night and my wife and I were just like, you know, just laying in bed chatting, getting ready for bed.

And, you know, they got home and they wandered in just like hung out in our room for like 20 minutes just talking and joking.

12:58

And that's the kind of family we are.

Like, we're, we're really very much together.

We have a more big morning family party like this huddle where we sing songs and dance and, you know, do a big high 5 and hug.

And I read the family of the Bible and we pray together and then in the evening we have the same thing like like we all meet together and I take my sons through this father son book club.

13:22

So we have a book chat and then, you know, I take out the guitar and we sing a little bit and then we all pitch in and help make dinner and it's just a big party.

And so because we're all just like so hyper connected when this came out and the idea of like, you know, telling our family story, you know, both the good and the bad in public, they were pretty on board just because we tend to do everything together anyways.

13:50

And then at the same time though, like at the time you and I are talking, barely anybody has seen the film.

Like, like for the very first time, I guess exactly a week from now, next Friday, you know, my family will be with me in LA on stage after the first like big crowd of people have seen the film.

14:07

And, and yeah, I, you know, I'm hoping that that the, I don't know, whatever you want to call like the publicity, the the media, the limelight is something that just brings our family even closer together and maybe gives my sons and my wife an even deeper sense of purpose when it comes to like sharing their story and seeing how they can help out the world.

14:29

But yeah, nobody, nobody pushed back in in my family, at least as far as like, hey, let's just let's do this.

Let's put this out there.

You know, it reminds me of, I guess I hate, I hesitate to bring him up right now because of all that's happened recently.

14:47

But you know, I had read Peter Tia's book Outlive.

And, you know, the whole book reads like basically like high end medical kind of biohacking.

And then you get to the last chapter and he's like, Oh yeah.

By the way, I'm a rage addict who's nearly lost my whole family and had to go away to a retreat center to like learn how to, you know, and this is actually foundationally underpinning all this stuff that I've just shared.

15:09

And I just could relate to that so much.

And I've seen this so many times.

It's like the a lot of times what drives you to success are the very problems that are, you know, simmering underneath the surface, yet they there's something beautiful about it.

15:27

And I wanted to say to you, I don't say this to do I want to with full respect to all your career and all you've done, but I sort of watching that film, I thought, man, some of this is going to help people much more than almost like anything.

You've offered so much for decades to people about how they can optimize their life, their health, their fitness, their longevity.

15:48

But at a spiritual soul level, the stuff that you're sharing in this is going to impact.

I mean, there's going to be people who receive a a gift greater than anything you could have given them with all your prior content.

Part of that comes from the vulnerability, but I think part of that's coming to the realization that our culture's obsessed with this self project and it doesn't doesn't really lead anywhere.

16:10

Yeah, and I mean, and now it's gotten even even worse.

You know, you've seen it the past year, the whole looks maxing movement, which I was actually thinking about this this morning because, you know, it's a video turn up on my feet of some dude like breaking his jaw or whatever, you know, so he could get the the Superman, you know, Jay, breaking your jaw, breaking your legs, you know, mewing and implants and 14 year olds on testosterone.

16:37

And you know, I thought, gosh, like, you know, even in my book in, in boundless, there's an entire chapter on like beauty and symmetry and you know, in the value that you might bring to society or to yourself and the confidence that that produces.

And I'm like, gosh, like, you know, I, I think, I think a lot of the like the early day biohackers or health optimizers, including myself, almost like fueled a little bit of this looks maxing movement, which fits in the same category of, well, that's great if you got, you know, whatever, nice calf implants and a perfectly square jaw and a good hairline and optimize testosterone levels.

17:14

But dude, you realize like how much life is going to suck when you're 30 years old and you like can't have kids, like, right.

You can't propagate your seed and have a legacy.

And it's just, you know, and and I you know, I wish that people didn't have to go to the place where you feel the emptiness from the myopic pursuit of health and anti aging to have this realization.

17:39

And you know, and hopefully the film helps out with that a little bit.

But you know, I think for some people, like you just have to get to that point where you're like, gosh, you know, I did it.

I got the I got the six pack and whatever I did the I did the Iron Man and I did the Spartan, you know, whatever Death Race, you know, and all the things.

17:56

And I'm still searching, right?

I still have that eternal hole in my soul that feels kind of empty.

Yep, right.

And to put your identity in something that ultimately has to fade, you just can't keep that level into eternity.

18:12

So therefore it has to fade.

So there, you know, if you're putting your identity in a thing that eventually rusts and corrupts and breaks down, you know, ultimately, I mean, you're going to find yourself feeling pretty empty at the end.

Yeah.

And I think a lot of people like, well, it's all relative, right?

18:30

So yeah, when I'm 40, I'll be broken down a little bit more when I was then when I was 30.

But you know, I, I can certainly be like the fittest 40 year old out there.

And you know, when I'm 50, I'm going to be working on mental optimization and learning new skills.

And, you know, when I'm 60, you know, I'll be playing masters, pickleball and whatever.

18:48

Like there will always be some kind of a metric to chase, no matter how old you are.

You like some way to make yourself better and to optimize.

And there's not necessary clearly something inherently wrong with that, but it will like there will, there will be this constant threat and magnet and pull to take you away from faith, family and relationships.

19:11

And I, I think that that that pull towards optimization, even when your body does start to fall apart.

And you'd think all the clues would be there that hey, bro, this is not like the most important thing to be working on, you know, I, I think that you can just stay on that hamster wheel, you know, until you're 80 or dead or whatever.

19:31

Yeah, but you can also end up with, you know, there was a moment in the film your wife uses the word narcissism.

And she uses it so carefully.

She can tell she's like, very reluctant to say it, but she says it.

And I've certainly heard that word out of my own wife before as well.

19:46

And my wife is, I wanted to say, sounds like he just seems like you have an amazing wife and that's hard to overstate.

The gift, the blessing and the importance of an incredible wife.

You know, and I have a really incredible wife.

20:04

And she basically all that energy that I put into myself, she puts that energy into other people.

And I've watched her do now for 10 years.

I thought, man, she just does not get it, you know, as I'm working on myself. 10 years into it now, I see what she's built for us, this incredible network of families and friends, all this support everywhere, just all these fun children and all these wonderful people who always are just interested in what we're doing and invested into us.

20:31

And she's built all this stuff through loving other people.

And I tried to build all these things through loving myself.

And I, I don't want, obviously for the listeners here, I'm not trying to diminish taking care of your health or your nutrition or your fitness.

I mean, that's so crucial, but there's a point at which there's diminishing returns and that energy is like better invested into other things.

20:53

You quote Mark 836, which I really love.

What does it profit a man to gain the whole world if he loses his own soul?

And I thought that really summed up this whole conversation really well because I was, I was getting all the things.

21:09

I mean, I lately I, I look at these billionaire tech people and I think, man, on paper you're the winner, but in reality you're actually a loser.

So much and, and you know, you know what with with the, the narcissistic thing, it is interesting because like, like for so for guys like you and me who are public figures, there is a certain amount of self work that you need to do.

21:30

Like, like you need to be, you know, foraging and maybe just like combing your hair and showering before you get on Instagram or YouTube and, and like presenting a certain amount of like confidence and put to get put togetherness to the world.

That maybe people who aren't in the limelight and who haven't chosen to be a public health educator or public science educator or, or, you know, even influencer in in a positive sense of that word have chosen.

21:56

But yeah, it's, it's super easy to take it too far when monetization and, you know, shall we say Maslow's hierarchy is tied to your image, right?

That, and then they could become super tempting and, and you constantly have to question yourself.

OK, like, is, is this intentionally helping me get my message out to the world?

22:15

Or am I getting to the point where I'm just like trying to present this fake perfect image and getting sucked into all of the dopaminergic responses that occur every time that you're doing self work?

Not to mention the idea that I think for many people, the self work is a form of control, right?

22:34

And it's, it's, it's lack of trust in, you know what for me would be God's path for my life and more trust based in how can I control this scenario, this scenario, including my body, my brain, my business, all those things that I can wake up in the morning and control.

22:52

And until you release that, like it, it's very, very tempting and just say, all right, I got this.

I'm going to optimize and, and I'm even more motivated and justified to do so because you know, in, in the sector that I'm in, my income kind of depends on that optimization.

23:08

Yeah.

So that's the piece that's that's an important piece, of course, right.

That's just career stuff.

So that's vital.

But then I think, you know, in addition to getting kind of hooked on the, the dopamine part of it, there's also the component where if you've got a fundamentally broken thing going on inside and everybody's complimenting you constantly on how smart you are and how fit you are and how like what incredible speaker you are and all the great information you bring.

23:34

And you can just like let that become a giant cover story for what's festering underneath.

And that's what I had going on.

I had like unaddressed issues and I had no sense of needing to address them because I was getting flattery constantly from every direction.

23:51

And that I started to see when I got married, it was like, oh, sometimes my wife wants to talk about things about me that I don't like talking about.

I'd rather go hear from my fans right now.

You know what I mean?

Like, or, you know, maybe another way to talk about it too would be sometimes I'll see bodybuilders, They'll look amazing physically, but you talk to them, you're like, oh, not so intellectually developed.

24:13

Or you'll see somebody who's got incredible emotional intelligence, but they're morbidly obese.

Or you meet a scientist whose intellect is fully developed and they have no physical body, you know, and you kind of get these different areas where somebody's really excelled.

And I'm so interested in being fully well-rounded.

24:31

But I think sometimes a little bit of notoriety can cover over a whole area that's atrophied that you don't.

And it's so painful to go into at 1st that it's just like easier to avoid it until you know it starts creeping into your life in a way that can't be avoided anymore.

24:47

Yeah, and I think one of the most difficult areas to, to, to, to like cover up with that, that perceived image of, of perfection or that, that projected image of perfection is your relationships, your community and your faith.

25:06

It's like you just can't fake that stuff.

You know, there's there's no, there's no relationship filter that I know of.

Someone could make a lot of money maybe.

But but yeah, when, when everything that you can project and fake and filter is dialed in and then everything else that, you know, kind of down to the if, if Mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.

25:29

You know, whatever's going on at home is, is not going well.

All that other stuff, just like super sucks.

And I think that's where we see a lot of times in our sector, like people do implode and, and sometimes we think, OK, well, whatever, they just, you know, did a, did a little bit too, you know, much whatever, like psilocybin one night or they, they went over the edge with something or they just kind of cracked.

25:53

But a lot of times it's that slow erosion, and a lot of it occurs from the erosion of faith, the erosion of relationships and the personal life that just kind of slips away.

And you know, that that's certainly what happened to me.

26:08

And, you know, by the grace of God, you know, me and, and, and my family and my wife were able to, to, to catch it and fix things.

But yeah, it it's so easy to to to optimize and yet have the things that are most important to be falling apart in the background.

26:26

Yeah, and that's what's wild is like all in the quest to live a long time, right?

So it's like, OK, so you get to live 200 year.

I mean, not that you could, but let's say you could you live 200 years, but none of it's living because you're so busy chasing and not living, right?

Because, you know, you start to see as the film goes on, it's like so nice to see you settling into your, I guess maybe we'll call it your new life, you know, and seeing you with your family and seeing you, you know, navigating those emotional and spiritual places the way you are now.

26:56

And I know for me, again, having kind of been through a similar journey, I felt like it just felt so good to see that in you.

I'm curious because that's what happened to me too.

You know, I came in with such strong mission and such strong drive and such strong faith.

And then over time, I think I fell into the trap.

27:12

It's so classic.

I mean, it's such a classic male power trap, you know, And so, and I've recently been watching it.

One of the things I've been watching recently is I'm watching men around me get on testosterone and destroy their lives.

Dude, I have to say I.

27:27

Man.

I, I just watch like, I don't know if it's that something like as you age and your T levels come down a bit, you know, what allows a man to kind of come into his heart and get connect spiritually a little bit more because he's not so driven to go conquer something like that.

27:43

But then I'm watching guys who should be at that stage of life go back into their 20s physiologically and make decisions that you're like, how could you do that?

You just.

Destroyed your whole life, you know, over something.

Stupid And so I'm seeing a lot of that kind of thing.

And then so that's one way, but also just once people, when people adore you, man, you can really believe, you know, cuz you hear that saying like don't take anything personally, even the good stuff.

28:08

It's like you start thinking that's all true, right?

People are flattering you.

They want to be around you.

They want a little piece of what you have.

You start buying into the story and before you know it, yeah, things like faith, family and relationships fall way behind.

So what's your advice to like a, let's say a young guy who's he's coming up in looks, maxing, he's starting to get views, he's starting to get, he's starting to feel that fame.

28:28

People want him to come speak money starting to come in for the first time in a big way.

The ladies are all throwing themselves at his feet.

What do you tell that guy before he gets there?

Yeah, so, so a couple of things.

First of all, let's let's just get this out of the way right now.

28:45

I've been on testosterone for four years.

I, I, I think if you use it responsibly and if you are not getting like super physiologic doses that you can nip in the bud some of like the anger, the aggression, the out of control libido.

29:03

And then I also think as, as perhaps you were alluding to, if you do take, let's say, like a 45 year old happily, you know, married man, you know, with a stable partnership and you all of a sudden, like, make them like horny as hell, like they were when they were 18 years old due to improperly managed testosterone.

29:23

Yeah.

You can create a scenario that that goes way beyond just, you know, doing something that helps you recover faster from the gym, so to speak.

So I, I think that's a nuanced discussion.

I'm very careful with it.

And both of my sons know like don't even go near anything like that.

29:41

When you're in any stage where you're gonads are working just fine and you're pumping it out just fine yourself.

You don't want to suppress your own natural production, etcetera.

But I, I think there's a time and a place for a healthy discussion on testosterone replacement therapy where it fits.

But as far as like the looks maxing scene, I mean, part of it is kind of just like that, like that cheesy Disney esque response of like, look at what's inside.

30:06

Like that's that's what's really important.

But it it is actually true.

31:30

You know, both of my sons are into fitness, they're into working out, they hit the gym, they take colostrum, they take creatine, you know, they've take aminos.

They, they, they, they are probably more into fitness than the average 18 year old boy might be.

31:48

And yet they know the order of priorities, right?

God comes first family comes right after that your relationships, your community, your friendships and the service that we do to people in our little community of Viola on into the neighboring communities and they're around us is number 3.

32:09

And then comes health and then comes your business.

That's that's that's the priority.

That is, you know, exactly written in our Greenfield family constitution in our mission statement.

So I think setting up your boundaries for yourself in terms of boundaries that actually define your identity are important.

32:27

I think some of that just requires education and self work and, and, and in our book, you know, constant prayer and, and, and seeking to hear the voice of God and to be able to discern, you know, when you're spending too much time on self versus others.

32:47

But I think more practically, the idea of looks maxing is very shallow.

And I think the very, very first most important question I would ask is do you want to attract and have as, as, as your primary audience and people who look up to you, the type of people who are that sold on something that shallow?

33:14

Because once that goes away, if that does go away, then are those people still going to be backing you, liking you, following you, listening to you, or are they just going to move on, right?

Because a, a shallow pursuit like that is only going to result in, you know, shallow followers and friends.

33:36

And you can only do so much in terms of the meaning that you bring to the world when it's just all about the jawline and the ABS and testosterone levels and the Cavs.

And you know, I I've personally been a little bit shocked at how rapid and popular the whole idea of looks maxing has become.

33:55

It is interesting though, to think of it as a generational evolution from where we come out of, you know, and you just see 'cause you can kind of see it with music as well.

You can see so interesting with culture.

You know, you brought up God a few times and it's, it's interesting to watch what happens in, I don't know, 4050, sixty years of kind of taking God out of the center of a culture and then not really replacing it with anything except the idea of success, power, long life, something like that.

34:24

And and.

Right now removes something infinite, Yeah.

And then it's like, OK, so here's all this finite shit and let's let's see if this can do the same thing.

Just start throwing it all in that hole That's.

Never in here today.

Everybody wakes up every day, turns on the news to see like, is everything still even functioning anymore?

34:41

Right?

Like we're in this kind of scary cultural moment because everything's so nihilistic.

And that idea of putting God first, I was hoping maybe you could expand on that a little bit.

I think that's such a crucial component.

And it, you know, it's funny.

Did you grow up in a religious house, household or did this come to you later in life?

34:59

So my my mom grew up near Detroit, MI and my dad grew up in Miami.

My dad was not raised in a Christian house and was the son of relatively wealthy parents in Miami.

35:18

Got into a lot of trouble, you know, drugs and jail time from the age of 13.

And when he was 18, his brother was stabbed in the heart by a Cuban gang member during a the fight that occurred during a drug deal.

35:39

And that was kind of like the last thing that shook my dad up and made him really begin to reconsider his priorities in life.

He wanted to get out of the big city.

And so he just basically just like, stuck his finger on a map.

And it was on Idaho.

35:55

It landed on Idaho.

So he moved to Idaho with the dream of becoming a farmer at the same time.

My mom and I can say this because she's I've interviewed both my parents on my podcast and she's talked about this.

She had a pretty brutal experience with sexual assault again, by a, by a gang of a bunch of guys in a warehouse that she was working at and similar story.

36:19

You know, that was like the final straw.

And she's like, I got to get out of here.

And she also moved to Idaho, where her sister lives.

They, they met in Idaho.

My dad became a Christian after being, after being witnessed, after someone shared the gospel with him, a guy named Jim Wilson, who is the, the father of a somewhat popular pastor.

36:43

I mentioned him earlier, Doug Wilson.

And then my mom's sister who she moved out here to live with was a Christian.

And, and so basically they both became Christians.

And, you know, when they had me and my four siblings, we were all raised in a Christian house.

36:58

And, you know, that was a huge blessing in that it probably kept me out of a lot of trouble growing up.

And yet, like many young individuals, I still had a falling away, you know, chasing all the things that I thought were more important or more cool or what the world might have expected me to be, you know, as opposed to God.

37:17

And so, but you know that that that was certainly an environment in which I was raised, you know, Christian environment with an appreciation for faith and family that I did fall away from.

37:32

But I think coming back to it was all the easier because I still had instilled in me those values from an early age of knowing like deep down inside, having that gnawing of, oh, like this isn't right, because I know better.

Like I know what's really important.

It's interesting with in light of what we've been talking about because as you go through life, you know, at least as a man, my experience, build your career and then have the kind of things that we talked about happen, you know, make mistakes, fall, realize your character's not quite what you thought it was, having to restructure everything.

38:09

And then you look at the life of Christ and you're like, oh wow, the way he walks through it.

He's got all this fame, all this attention.

People are following him everywhere and he just keeps demonstrating service, you know, right up to the night before he dies when he washes his disciples feet and you're like, man, I mean, be hard for me to pull my staff together and wash their feet.

38:29

You know, you know what I mean?

It's especially the night before.

I know I'm I'm going to die.

It's so, so he demonstrates this selflessness that when I was younger seemed kind of, I don't know, like wasted effort to me.

I didn't quite understand.

38:45

But now it's so interesting because when I've found that when I prioritize other people, when I prioritize my family, when I prioritize my relationships, it's I don't say this like as a hack, you know, because it's going to sound like that, but it's like the amount of goodness that comes out of that.

39:02

It's like I, I go down to my gym and I train.

I feel great after there's a reward.

But when I go serve somebody else, the rewards are it's sort of like the difference between getting a gift and giving a gift.

I mean, I just get so much more out of giving it, you know, then I do out of.

Yeah, it's interesting that you say it's not a hack because like, that, that's where I know like, my mind is sometimes tempted to go.

39:22

It's like, well, look at look at, you know, Harvard's longest running study on longevity.

And it turns out that just like helping other people in the amounts of, you know, deep friendships that you have in your life Trump's everything.

And then it also turns out that, you know, you could say the same thing for a gratitude practice or for serving other people.

39:41

And then you can sit down to your gratitude journal or, you know, or or, you know, begin to to seek out volunteering opportunities in the local community or begin to serve your family.

And at the back of your mind, you're thinking, well, this ought to help out the telomeres.

And yes, that that's a beneficial side effects.

40:00

But when when you shift into selfless mode and you're doing something for the pure joy of seeing someone else be helped, I think that that's that's a pretty darn big clue to you that you've crossed that threshold of your identity not being rooted in self and what something does for your own optimization, but your identity being rooted in.

40:22

Loving God and and loving others you know exactly as Jesus Christ did.

Yeah, wow.

Because there's a component of it where maybe it's like the difference between living in spirit and like the the law or something, because you can do the same acts.

40:37

It's like the condition of your heart.

That is more interesting to me, right.

So I could go serve people because I'm thinking about what it will do to my telomeres, or I can go serve people genuinely to see them be better off.

And like the the one is like religion.

I go and I do, I check all the boxes and do all the right things.

40:55

You know, that's another interesting component of the gospel that you see is this Pharisitical class of people.

They're doing all the things, but the condition of their heart when they do them is not right.

And so Jesus spends more time with people who outwardly do not appear to be doing the right things, but the condition of their heart is different, right?

41:15

It's soil that's receptive or something like that.

And so I think there's a component of that.

Yeah, yeah, I, I think the idea, you know, in our in our family devotions right now, we're going through the book of Hebrews and the idea of companionship comes up there quite a bit.

And you know, when you break that down, I I know you're you're a etymology or entomology.

41:35

I don't remember if it's studying words or eating insects, but you're.

And of.

Course companionship comes up and you know, it's the idea of, of breaking bread with others and that actually being something that we are, we're, we're commanded to partake in as a part of this walk of faith and as a part of growing closer to God.

41:58

And when you, when you think about put it through that lens, it actually there, there actually is a lot of fun that that comes aside in and, and I, I get into this a little bit in the film.

You see a few clips here and there in the film.

We started this practice close to the time that I really made the turn around and and really started to buckle down on faith and family of throwing a dinner party on an average of twice a month at our home and just inviting people from all walks of life into the community and filling up the dinner table.

42:29

And, you know, a lot of times it's potluck style and people bring food and there's usually a theme where like where are your most colorful spring colors?

Or, you know, we bust out the karaoke machine or there's a popsicle contest or we've even gone as far as like Iron Chef where two people show up three hours early and there's a mystery ingredient there.

42:47

They got we write the check, but they're making the food for everybody and it's super fun.

But just just this idea of, of service, not necessarily even needing to be something that you begrudgingly, you know, go do like whatever, you know, serving in the soup kitchen and in the middle of a Blizzard at 4:30 AM.

43:07

It's like a lot of this stuff is fun, just like, you know, inviting people into your home.

And I ride my bike around the neighborhood and stuffed Flyers in the mailboxes.

And, you know, and then people begin to pour in and you've got everybody from the, you know, retired Navy SEAL to the single mom to the family 8.

43:26

And it's, it's, you know, that's something I would really encourage people to do if they just like really want to get started in a good place with the service community thing.

Like, people don't care how big your house is.

People don't care how big your table is.

If you have, you know, a couple of rooms and some folding chairs and some card tables, like you are good to go.

43:43

And that's been really transformative for us as far as just like bringing people into our home because that has exponential implications.

Like people leave, but friendships are formed and people are doing other things throughout the week.

And I can't tell you how, how many new friends we've created and how many friends other people have made just as a result of coming and hanging out at a potluck dinner, you know, a couple of times a month.

44:08

Yeah, Well, I really want to echo that because this sounds so obvious to say, but in our era, it's important.

It's very easy to have virtual friendships and one day realize you don't even know anybody who lives in your neighborhood or you don't know anybody locally.

And it's not the same thing as when you gather together.

44:26

I mean, the energy of, you know, it's like listening to MP3 versus like hearing music played live, right?

It's a completely different experience and it's a much more, it kind of washes over you in a full and complete way that you can't experience digitally.

So I just, I just love that man.

44:42

So you've been having people over to the house and really building real in person relationships with people who live in your area.

Yeah.

The other thing is, is of course people are messy and that's very easy to escape in a digital environment.

And that can be everything from that e-mail or text or Slack message, guilty as charged that you send to someone with such an attitude or style behind it that doesn't really have any element of just like love or gratefulness or patience.

45:13

It's just like, you know, I, I tend to do that a lot in the digital environment because it's very easy for, you know, the, the, the digital avatar to be someone who you just like, look on as like a mechanical Turk, just like, you know, do this now, please.

What, why, why didn't you do this?

Whereas when, when you're with people you know, in real life, you know, IRL flesh and blood standing there with them, like there's, there's a great deal of social grace that's required.

45:42

There's a lot more of needing to put up with where people are in the moment with no ability to close a browser tab or escape.

It's like if there's a four year old over at your house for dinner and everything's messy and you're trying to whatever, you know, finish the salmon on the grill and they're running around like bleeding on the floor because they hit their head on the coffee table.

46:03

It's like you're trying to to manage people and be kind to people and feed people and take care of folks and it and it's just entirely different than the digital relationship.

And I mean, you know, we could talk to her blue in the face about digital versus in real life experiences.

46:19

And I think Sherry Turkle has a great book on this.

She's got a couple of good books on this.

But yeah, if if you're not intentionally bringing the messiness of other people into your life, you're missing out on a big part of what it means to be a human being.

And you need to brace yourself for the discomfort and the work that comes with that.

46:39

But man, it's, it's so worth it.

Especially if you have a little bit of what we were talking about earlier.

I know for me, and this has been one of the interesting things of again, being married, you know, my wife and I have different operating systems and so I can't get out of bed and not make the bed.

I just can't mean maybe once in the year, but I have to make it the second I get out of bed because a made bed represents order to me.

47:02

And I grew up in chaos that was dangerous.

And so it was a way of controlling at least that little space.

And then, like, another one for me is if I see like an empty roll of toilet paper on the on the dispenser, to me, that means my mom is in a depressive mode.

47:17

She's not getting out of bed for three days.

And it's going to be true.

And it's I'm going to take care of my brothers and sisters and we're not going to have any food, you know what I mean?

Whereas for my wife, it's like, I didn't have any of that.

It's just like, yeah, we'll get to changing it, you know?

And it took me a long time to understand that she wasn't wrong.

47:34

You know, it's like, that's because I have a need to control chaos, and that comes out of my childhood.

And so similarly, I think just to piggyback on what you were saying, when you bring people into your life, they're they are messy.

And if you're a control freak, you can't, you know, it just gets to a level you got a house full of people like you can't control that.

47:54

And I think there's something like, they call it like exposure therapy, where just being in that space and keeping my heart open, you know, it's.

Been jumping with the sharks.

Yeah, and like, you just can't do anything about it, you know?

Especially like, I know we've got a lot of Christian friends now and they have this enormous families.

48:13

I mean, five kids, six kids, you know, and you're just, they're just kids everywhere.

You can't control any of it.

And you just got to release yourself to the chaos.

I think you're really onto it with that.

Hey, tell me a little bit about, so you've spent a career having to do these kind of things like take me through a day in the life of Ben Greenfield.

48:30

If we were going to take out all of the fitness and the biohacking and all that kind of nutrition and all those pieces, and we were going to walk through the things that you're doing in a day for your spiritual life, for your family, for all these things we've been talking about.

What are the kind of practices that have really stuck for you over these years as you've been working this stuff out?

48:49

And, and what are the things you encourage other people to do in this specific realm?

Yeah, as as with many routines, there's, there's always plasticity and growth that occurs.

And if you would ask me this question five years ago, there, there would have been some differences.

But a lot of the key elements are threaded through.

49:04

First of all, I'm going to get this out of the way.

I do not make the bed when I get up in the morning for two reasons.

I get up early.

Guy's on tea and he doesn't even make the bed.

I get up early.

That's that's going to be the only clip for this whole podcast.

The bed does not make the bed.

49:20

I get up early.

My wife sleeps in a little bit and no matter, dude, I could spend 20 minutes making the bed and she will remake it like she's got her way.

It is this mysterious black box that in the stove top.

49:36

Like I can literally just like take elbow grease to the stove top for 1/2 hour and she'll walk in the house and start disassembling the stove top, clean the stove top.

So I don't clean the stove top or make the bed.

Now the so right now what my routine looks like is very first thing is when I get up, I put on the daily audio Bible.

50:00

I love to listen to the Bible and I will just tool around the house.

That's like, so it's Old Testament, New Testament, Psalms, Proverbs.

It's around 30 to 40 minutes you got.

A translation preference.

He bounces around.

So later on I read to the family and I read from the English standard version of the Bible.

50:19

But he bounces around.

The guy who who records this and he'll choose a different translation, you know, multiple days of the week.

But I like his voice, I like his style.

I like some of the expository stuff he does at the end and then whenever that finishes, I go outside.

50:36

If it's summer, spring or otherwise, I'm in the living room and I pray.

I have my personal prayers and that's everything from Thanksgiving to petition to asking God to to watch over assist me with certain things during the day.

There are typically I have a an annual retreat and out of that annual retreat that's just me come certain themes that I'm focusing on for the year.

51:01

So I have a poster on my wall right now and that's really the core of my own personal daily prayers is well, there's there's 10 items on there.

Prayer, kindness, contentedness, love, trust, honor, obedience, abundance, intention and courage.

51:18

And so you.

Were talking about.

Yeah, yeah.

So those are like 10 aspects of my life that I identified for 2026 that I really want to to to lay out to God to help me work on.

Could you go through them again for me?

Yeah, so the so the first is prayer specifically identified that while I do a good job with the calendar prayer times, constancy of prayer, like listening for God's voice throughout day before an e-mail, but you know, before a chat when I'm a little bit frustrated at a certain point during the day, like turning to God in those moments is something that identified as something I need to do a better job of.

51:57

So that's one.

And then kindness and contentedness were two and three, kindness pretty obvious.

They're just, you know, back to the whatever, not treating people I interact with virtually like digital avatars.

Contentedness for me that primarily stemmed from sexual contentedness.

52:19

Like recognizing that there are times that, you know, I'm tempted to take a second glance or get a little bit too deeply involved in a one-on-one conversation while I'm, you know, traveling and, you know, out of what might be considered a safe element.

And just constantly reminding myself everyday how freaking lucky I am to have Jessa in my life and how I would never want to do anything that would that would disrupt that relationship.

52:45

And a big driver for that from, for me is just like contentedness, dude.

Look at what God is giving you.

Like, like, it's incredible.

And yeah, just just be content in that.

Love putting myself in other shoes more often.

Trust, trusting God is in control because I can tend to be urgent and impatient, especially in business activities, and trusting that that God will allow things to happen in his time.

53:14

Honor specifically towards my parents when my father passed away.

And some of that story is in the documentary.

You know, I had times where I felt ashamed or embarrassed or, you know, felt like my dad was a little weird.

53:32

There are times when I've been tempted to like lash out at my mom or try.

And, you know, she just does so many things that I don't agree with.

You know, she runs a coffee shop downtown.

And, you know, we're, we bash heads a lot, even though we we deeply love each other.

But just this idea of honouring like, like this entire year, every time I walk past my dad's grave, which is at the bottom of my driveway, I shout, I love you, dad.

53:53

And, and, and that's like something new for me, rather just that idea of honouring parents both dead and alive.

And then obedience and abundance, right?

Obeying God no matter what and trusting the things will work out even when you have a huge opportunity open up, let's say on a Sunday afternoon for a great business call, that's probably going to make you $100,000 worth, that's the Sabbath.

54:18

God said not to work on the Sabbath, so obey and move on no matter what.

Abundance, meaning just constantly looking around the house at what I have that I don't need and giving away things a lot, not having a spirit of, you know, I can get into kind of like pack rat scarcity.

54:37

There might be a zombie apocalypse someday mode and you know, just just reminding myself to not be in that mode.

And then finally, intention.

I, especially from, from a fitness standpoint, can get into the rut of putting in junk miles or just training for the sake of training.

54:56

And for the longest time when I was like racing and, you know, doing Spartan and triathlons, it was very easy to be intentional with training.

And now sometimes it's like I'm just going to go to the gym and, you know, move shit around.

But one thing that I really wanted to focus on this year was being being consistent and having my fitness oriented around certain things, right?

55:17

Like right now, it's tennis, right?

Like I am, I'm in a tennis group, it's competitive.

I'm really having to work on my hip rotation, on my lateral stability, on my shoulder stability.

I'm just making sure that I'm not engaged in activities, especially from a fitness standpoint that are not intentionally focused on a specific goal.

55:36

I'm not just, you know, wasting my time for vanity's sake.

And then the last one is courage.

And I don't know if you've experienced this, Daniel, I know you're a pretty adventurous guy, But as you grow older, as you grow wealthier, as you get kind of more set in your ways, it's easy to quit doing the things that that used to scare you, right?

55:57

That that that that kind of make you step off the edge.

And for this one, I'm in the middle of a two year project of riding a father son adventure guide, right?

I was jumping out of airplanes last weekend.

I was, you know, hunting hogs at midnight the weekend before.

56:13

And I'm going on all these adventures with my sons to push myself outside my comfort zone because discomfort grows.

And I recognize that I'd kind of gotten set in my ways the past couple of years just going out and doing more scary things.

So that's an example of like 10 things that I kind of pray about every day that are things that I that I want God to work on in my life.

56:35

In 2026.

That was a really long answer.

That's an excellent answer.

I'm curious about how so?

So all these things you're talking about, they all take time and they take focus and you had all the things you were focused on before.

How much of the stuff that you used to do had to fall away and or did it reorganize and kind of vertically integrate somehow or like, you know, how are you balancing also because you have a brand and a career and people do look to you for these things.

57:05

So how, how is the, what is the integration look like of this, you know, spiritual, you know, relational thing with all of the biohacking stuff?

Yeah, I did quit racing.

You know, I, I raced in Ironman triathlon and then Spartan and Adventure racing for years.

57:21

That was a huge time suck.

Now I've got about now I've got like an hour.

Yeah, I've, I, I spent about an hour doing actual like intense physical work, you know, like I'm walking while I'm talking to you.

I don't really count that.

But you know, so definitely cutting out the amount of fitness building activities that I did, building a team and delegating way more and also just building at a much slower pace.

57:48

You know, I went from having a virtual assistant and maybe 2 employees to now across all my companies, I have over 30 people.

And, you know, and, and you know, that that obviously requires some, some work.

And I think it begins from a brass tacks standpoint with just having a really good COO who eventually becomes ACEO and manages, you know, the hiring for you, but delegation and then not racing as much.

58:15

We're, we're, we're two big ones.

And then, you know, just just to, to close the loop, answering your question about, you know, the spiritual habits is I have that morning spiritual habit.

And then at about 7:00 AM, we have the family morning huddle right where I I lead devotions, I lead song, I lead family time, I lead discussion.

58:36

And that's about 20 minutes.

You guys sing together?

Yeah, yeah, we sing together.

Sometimes it's just a big dance part.

I mean, sometimes we will just like pump up whatever, like, I don't know, you know, Hillsong or Bethel or something like that.

And just like Just Dance.

And then in the evening, that's another really, really big focus time for relationships and spiritual growth.

59:02

So that again, involves like 7:00 PM, like clockwork, almost every night of the week, family dinner starts.

It begins with father son book club time.

We're talking about a chapter of a book that I've taken my sons through since they were six years old.

You know, the book changes from month to month, but we kick things off with that.

59:20

And then a song I lead with my guitar, and then prayer time.

And then during the morning family huddle, we're all talking about what we're doing for dinner and who's making what and who's bringing what to the table.

And so everybody kind of pulls out whatever dish that they've made.

59:37

And we have a game closet that literally is like, you know, one of those sitcoms reopen the closet and all the boxes and stuff fall out.

We have a game closet.

Like there's hundreds of games.

We play games for usually like an hour, hour and a half every night and then we put on more music or stand up comedy or just something fun and we clean the kitchen together.

1:00:00

And then we all gather in the living room or in our bedroom and we memorize scripture.

We memorize the Bible verse every night.

Right now we're working our way through Psalm 90, which interestingly is kind of about longevity and anti aging and the, you know, by the strength of our years we might live to to 80.

1:00:23

So it's a good reminder of our own mortality.

And then we we pray together and then my sons go to bed and then my wife and I also pray together after they've gone to bed.

Usually that's the last thing at the very end of the day is we just fall asleep in each other's arms praying.

And, and yeah, so, so those are a lot of just like the rocks that are planted throughout the day that really form the foundation of my spiritual walk and also my togetherness with my family.

1:00:50

And it's really beautiful to hear all that.

I'm curious how in an, in a world where people who are typically into what I've been calling project self, you know, they're for a long time, they would lean, I, I'd think mostly kind of like atheist and or maybe like be the word for it, like animistic or something like that.

1:01:11

And obviously we've been watching this incredible change culturally take place over the last decade, decade and a half anyway.

And I think right now it's a time where Jesus is very popular, you know, and, and religion starting to become popular again in a way that I've not seen in my lifetime.

1:01:29

Because it used to be, if you, you know, 678 years ago, you brought this up like you kind of get laughed out of the room in a way.

So obviously, I think part of it is that people have seen some darkness that they are can't account for in their, you know, typical kind of world view.

But still, that said, in a world of scientific rigor applied to the physical body, how has your audience responded to your spirit?

1:01:56

And I'm asking this out of like kind of selfish because I'm, I'm kind of, you know, coming out with my, my own, you know, path and, and, and Christianity now too.

So how how has that gone for you and and how does your audience receive it?

Yeah, well, well, first of all, I agree.

People seem to be returning to some semblance of, of, of sanity and faith.

1:02:18

And I think secularism kind of shot itself in the foot with the slow slide into silliness and people just, I don't know, in America, I just got, got fed up.

They're like, no, I don't want my taxes to pay for, you know, sex changes for illegal immigrants.

I just like, you know, or any pregnancy.

So, so, So, yeah, I, I think that, you know, you, you take secularism down at every slope far enough and people just kind of start to see the light, which I think is happening on my end.

1:02:46

You know, I, I started to be a little bit more forthright in my faith when, when I started to go through these own changes as far as wanting to rededicate myself to spiritual growth and to my family, I met with my pastor and I said, Hey, look, you know, I, I do have like this platform and I talk about health and fitness.

1:03:09

You know, should, should I be doing something there to help show people, you know, kind of the emptiness of it all at the end of the day, especially in the absence of, you know, filling that eternal hole in your soul with something that's actually infinite.

1:03:24

And he said, well, you should, you should just like write your testimony, you know, just, you know, share, you know, Share your story.

And so I was going to write like a little biography, you know, like one of the little, you know, 600 word testimonies and put it up somewhere in the About Ben section on the website.

That turned into a book called Fit Soul.

1:03:44

And then I wrote another book called Endure and another book called the Spiritual Disciplines Journal.

I've got another one coming out called Precepts.

I did boundless parenting.

So I started to just like package a lot of this stuff up into books.

The response from the audience, you know, it's, it's interesting.

There's a lot of people on the planet, Daniel, a lot of people and it's kind of like they're, they're and I, I don't even know what the rough numbers are, but there was kind of like an insurgent of the I'm not a huge fan of this phrase, but what you might call the faith-based fitness crowd.

1:04:16

We're like, oh, hey, we've got you know, we've we've got somebody we can turn to who we feel good about.

And then there there were a lot of other people who just kind of, you know, pulled the Jesus freak card and ducked out.

But at the end of the day, A, there wasn't a, a huge impact that I'm aware of, you know, from A, from a metrics number, if we want to call it that.

1:04:37

And then B, I don't know, man, like, like I can read 100 comments about how people finally got down to 15% body fat.

And then I can read one comment about somebody who like really fortified the relationship with their spouse and came to know God and has like, you know, three children who are thriving and love the Lord and, and, and you know, and, and their lives have completely transformed spiritually because of some, you know, chapter from fit soul that Trump's everything, right.

1:05:09

So, you know, you, you could, you could cut the audience by 90%.

And if that leftover 10% is having some real deep, meaningful changes that they're experiencing.

I don't think it even matters right.

The way I look about it is if, if we believe that there is an eternal existence after we die, for better or worse, and that we have the opportunity by sharing the good news of Jesus Christ's death and burial and resurrection to other people, couched with the idea that you no longer have to be a slave to your sin.

1:05:53

And that you can, you can have lasting and true freedom and happiness in Jesus Christ.

And like one person winds up believing in that and getting to live like forever in a new heaven and new earth.

1:06:09

That's like an eternal moment that's like, anymore that that's like more important than anything you could have ever done in your life because that goes on forever and ever and ever and ever and ever, right?

And so you can help 1000 people get fit and help one person get to heaven.

1:06:25

And the latter is infinitely more important.

Yeah, why?

Why store up your treasures here on earth, man, they really do rust and they really do become moth eaten, Right.

So storing your treasures in heaven where they're eternal, that really makes a lot of sense to me, where I'm at in my life today.

1:06:42

Anyway, so beautiful to see the trajectory of your story.

Really inspiring.

Where are people going to see the film?

Boundlessdoc.com, like DOC, boundlessdock.com is where like all the premier locations are, which I think right now is like Austin, London, New York City, Miami and LA and then it will go to streaming after that.

1:07:08

Ben, I'm really excited for you.

I'm really excited for this phase of your journey.

And I, I really want to just go back to what I kind of started with.

I think the level of vulnerability that you're going to hear is going to open the door for so many people to get vulnerable themselves.

1:07:25

So like as a role model, you're demonstrating something that isn't easy to do.

And I really appreciate it because I, I really resonate with it.

So, Ben, thank you so much for your time today, man.

Thanks man, it was super good to connect again.

Likewise.