Daniel Vitalis
ReWild Yourself, ReWild the Planet

Vegans vs Carnivores!

Are we Hunters?  Are we Gatherers?

Or…..  are we Hunter Gatherers?

Allow me begin this article with a show of Gratitude to everyone who commented on the blog “Hunter Safety”.  It was wonderful to see how much intelligent (and at times even heated) debate was generated, not to mention the space it made for a conversation that was long overdue…. This most is certainly a place for open dialogue, so as long as we remain fairly civil, you are welcome to discuss your feelings and opinions in the comments below…

That said…

It seems to me that as a collective we have so much more in common than not, and since our visions, values, and goals are so closely aligned, we might be all the wiser to unite and synthesize our views, rather than creating infighting within what is quickly becoming a bi-partisan health movement!

I don’t know about you, but I am very motivated by the ideal of balance, and feel that when we polarize we become cut off from an entire range of innovation, possibility and opportunity.  One such polarization that is emerging in our community now is that between the “Vegan” community and the “Primal” community.  For those who are not familiar, please allow me to elaborate.

The Vegan ethos is one of total abstinence from the foods and products derived from animal origin, this includes more than just meat, but also dairy, eggs, honey, leather, wool, silk, beeswax, and more.  This total abstinence in my experience (I lived this way for many years) is an ideal which one strives for, though in reality is difficult to achieve.  Still, one can get relatively close to it, and it is intimately entwined with a world-view that sees the eating of Wild or Domesticated animals as both unhealthy and unethical.

The Primal diet focuses largely on the diet of “Primitive” peoples, and not so much those living today as those who inhabited the Earth during the last IceAge.  Its focus is primarily on red meats, organs, animal derived saturated fats, as well as fishes, birds and their eggs.  There is a focus on the anthropological history of Homo as a genus, and what the fossil record indicates was, at least at that time, one of our dominant food sources.

Not only do these two dietary camps represent a polarization, both occupying extreme ends of a scale of possible food choices, but both see their approach as the “orthomolecular” or correct diet for our species from an anatomical and zoological perspective.  And while both sides possess their token charts and statistics, books, cult of personality figures, and amazing health testimonials, I cannot help but feel that there is a piece here that is missing.

Human beings (genus “Homo” species “sapien sapiens”) are – rather inarguably – Omnivores.

Omni, from the Latin “Omnis” meaning “All, Every, Everything”, and Vore from the Latin “Vorare” meaning “To Devour”.  In other words, we eat everything.  This is fairly indisputable.  The only place where this is being disputed is within the extremes of dietary culture, where one might contend that while we are omnivores by habit, we are otherwise by design.

Still…

From sworn herbivory to total carnivory, human beings really do eat everything!  Just have a look at this guy, Michael Lotito, who was famous for eating bicycles, televisions, and even a small airplane (that “meal” took 2 years!)…

Oh yeah, before anyone comments….  I am not suggesting this!

Personally, I have come to view the Omnivory of Humans (outside of bicycles of course) as something rather beautiful and it seems to be our ability to include “everything” into our diets that has allowed us to so consciously craft our destiny as a species.

It occurred to me recently how very dependent our species is on both plants and animals for our nutritional needs. Take vitamins as an example.  We know that metabolically we require the vitamin B12, or cobalamin, without which the deficiency known as “pernicious anemia” develops.  This molecule is particularly deficient amongst the plants of this world, and so we require animal foods for this essential nutrient (essential as is meant in nutritional terms, meaning we can not produce it from our own metabolism).  One of the glaring issues with Veganism as a dietary practice is that it is notoriously deficient in this vitamin, making it then, a vitamin deficient diet.  And while this may seem odd to those who are not and have never been vegans, it is something that, rather astonishingly is often the most overlooked, side stepped, and brushed aside flaw in the field “strict vegetarianism”.  It is of course not the only nutrient that we find lacking in Vegan diets, but is a great example thereof.

Similarly, when we come to a molecule like Vitamin C, or L-ascorbic acid, again we are talking here about an “essential” nutrient, one that we can not manufacture (well, except in laboratory synthesis).  Its deficiency causes the rather unfortunate symptoms of “scurvy” precisely because we lack the ability to “bio-synthesize” it.  This is somewhat unique in nature, as most animals and plants are quite capable of making their own.  Vitamin C, while found to some degree in animal tissue (liver and adrenals concentrate the most), but when compared against plant foods (in particular berries) meats and organs come up wanting.  It is unlikely that we have developed a dependence on this Vitamin’s presence in our food from the consumption of animal foods, but rather from its liberal and even extreme concentration in the foods that we have developed eating…  in other words, plants.

We truly are Omni.  We are the everything species…

Even more so than animals like the Bear that, while omnivorous, lack Fire, the Elemental tool that renders the inedible edible.  Sorry Rawfooders!  Check out Catching Fire: How Cooking Made Us Human

While a look into the distant past – which of course is merely speculation – may yield some interesting insight into the diet of the proto-form of our species, I think both perspectives lack a critical component.  We are Homo sapien sapien.  The domestic human.  Homo sapien (one sapien) was what is considered the “archaic” human form, the predecssor of the “modern” variation.  We are a novel organism and….

We are neither chimpanzees as the vegan world would often contend, nor are we Neanderthals as the primal diet proponents seem to suggest.

We are a unique species, specifically adapted as omnivores, and with modifications to our anatomy that attest to this.  In fact, it seems to me that our anatomy demonstrates that we have adapted to Fire in the same way an organism like a fish might adapt to the Water, or a bird has adapted to the Air.  Our lack of hair being just one example.  Another is the fact that we have the smallest mouths and stomachs (compared to our body size) of any of the great apes seems to indicate a selection towards those who ate the softest and most condensed food sources.

A brief survey of those humans we call the “Indigenous” of the world, especially those who were Hunter/Gatherers reveals a diet that, while varying in the ratio of animal to plant food, still always contains both in ample degrees.  These people are always cooks, in that they are never found on “Raw Food Diets”.  They eat a mix of raw and cooked foods, as well as balancing animal foods against plant foods.  I know of no culture that is based solely on plant food, nor one built exclusively on animal foods.

It seems like a strange and impossible argument to reconcile when the Vegan community continuously references chimpanzees and other apes, which we are a distinct species from as an indicator for what we should be eating.  And regardless, Chimps are far from vegetarians, eating insects, small primates, honey, eggs, and even bush pigs and antelope!  And while they are largely fruit eaters, most primatologist agree that meat is amongst their most prized dietary inclusions.  We cannot just simply blow this off, nor use Chimpanzee diets to validate the safety or soundness of a human Vegan diet.

At the same time, neither are we Neanderthals.  Isotopic testing of Neanderthal bones seems to indicate that their was little to no plant protein present in their diets.  In other words, they were predominantly meat eaters and hunters.  Homo sapiens sapiens sapien surveyed anywhere around the world today is, without question, Omnivorous.

I propose a synthesis of these two world views, and actually, everything in between.  What I have learned from 16 years of direct immersion into the field of nutrition is this…  Whole food plant based diets promote cleansing in the body, and are very catabolic.  They are great for reducing weight, for clearing toxins from the system, and resting the organs…  temporarily.

Vegan diets are cleansing!

Animal based whole food diets are very building and anabolic, and promote the growth of the body’s tissues.  Increasing the quantity of high quality animal protein and fat in the diet is critical for rebuilding the body after long cleanses.  They are also amongst the only foods that many people can tolerate when they have developed significant fungal infections or food allergies.

Primal Diets are Building!

When the goal is neither building nor cleansing, then a diet that is balanced between both high quality plant and animal food is ideal for homeo-dynamis, the dynamic balance that is usually (mis-correctly) called homeo-stasis.

Here in this chart is an example of the spectrum of nutrition that I was talking about…

Where we eat on this scale is entirely up to us, and of course always in flux.  Rather than dogmatically polarizing ourselves to one extreme or the other, would it not be wiser to move along this scale based on our personal goals and the affects we are aiming to achieve?

If you have spent years on a vegetarian diet and have experienced a “failure to thrive”, it is animal foods that offer the chance to rebuild your body.  In particular it is wild animals or free ranging grass-fed domesticates that contain the nutrients required to refurbish a depleted body.

Conversely, if you have been on a Standard American Diet for some time, and are feeling the burden of the toxic load this so easily creates, a vegetarian and even raw food approach may be just the answer to cleanse your body of the environmental and industrial toxins that pollute our inner ecology.

More importantly, can we simply eat without judgment for one another?  The heated discussions between the opposing factions of our community is almost embarrassing.  We all agree, it seems, on this;  Our food choices matter.  They matter for our health and the health of the planet.  They matter for our children, and for the future of our species.  They are at the root of so many of the challenging issues that face us today.

We all agree that we prefer organically grown and wild foods over those cultivated with pesticides and herbicides.  We all prefer foods with wild or heirloom genetics over those that have been poorly bred or genetically modified.  We all are doing what we can to create a world where the Soil, Air, and Water is clean and pure, and the rays of the Sun can freely penetrate down to the Earth (hint).

We have such a wonderful technology and medicine in the nutritional wisdom we have gleaned.  We know how to both cleanse and rebuild someone.  Whether you come from a Vegan diet, a Rawfood diet, a Wholefood diet, the Weston Price diet, the Paleo diet, or the Primal diet, or any other makes little difference.  We are all committed to using our dietary choices to heal ourselves and everyone around us that is willing.  We share far more with one another in this regard than we do with the other 99% of the Earths current human population.  Perhaps a bit of Conscious Omnivory could go a very long way.

Besides we all have a piece of this mosaic we are creating…  We each bring a little more perspective based on our knowledge and experience.

and…

After all…  its only food.

~Daniel

PS.  For all of the frutarians who kept saying that if humans were animal eaters they would be able to run down an antelope…  well, check it out!  We can!  Ok…. so in this video its not an antelope, but rather a Greater Kudu, and the Kalahari Bushmen do just that!  Amazing, humbling, inspiring, and….  well rather Sacred too. Its called Persistence Hunting!  Notice at the end that they eat plants with this meal!  Enjoy!

  • Derek Bramwell
    This is copied from http://divinecosmos.com/index....


    LOOK AT THE SCIENCE

    What really awakened me from this mindset was the work of Dr. Cleve Backster, who I often cite at my conferences. You can order his book "Primary Perception" and read all the evidence for yourself.

    Backster became famous in the 1960s and 70s after discovering that plants had remarkably human-like variations in their electrical activity, moment to moment.

    This variation is called Galvanic Skin Response, or GSR, and is used to administer lie-detector or 'polygraph' tests in humans.

    Backster hooked up his polygraph to a plant and was dazzled to find how human-like it was responding.

    The biggest shock of his life happened when he got the idea of lighting a match and burning one of the leaves of the plant.

    Bear in mind he hadn't actually done it -- he just had decided to do it.

    Right then, the plant had an enormous reaction, with the stylus fluctuating so extremely that it was actually hitting the stops that kept it from flying right off the paper.

    Were this a human being, you would literally be seeing them screaming and crying, churning in their chair, drenched in sweat -- or at the very least hyperventilating and sweating, with their hearts pounding and a feeling of being light-headed and highly agitated.

    He then actually did burn the leaf, and the 'screaming' continued. It did not stop until he actually removed the matches from the room and left the plant alone.



    EVERYTHING DOES THIS

    As you can read in the Primary Perception book, from primaryperception.com, every living thing is part of this 'family', and they all look out for each other.

    Backster hooked up one egg to his polygraph and then boiled other eggs. The electroded egg invariably 'screamed' as each of the others were dropped into the water.

    Plants even 'scream' when bacteria die, such as in yogurt -- and if you want to be healthy, everyone knows you have to take 'probiotics,' which actively are killing millions of microbes in your own body in the process.

    Bacteria scream at the loss of other bacteria. They scream when plants are burned. They even screamed when Backster planned to crack an egg -- but he hadn't actually done it yet.

    In one case, an African violet screamed when Backster picked up Sammy, his sleeping Siamese cat, and startled him.

    In another case, plants always screamed when a particular man came into the lab. It turned out he had a job as a lawnmower -- so to the plants he was a Mass Murderer.

    These are things that strongly affected how I think.
  • Brandymjw
    Aw man. That video made me cry. At first it was because of the dieing kudu, but then the man was so respectful. It was beautiful. Thanks for sharing.
  • BillionsUponUs
    sure sounds fun running ALL DAY LONG in the blistering sun to kill an animal. id rather climb a tree and eat its offerings... you know 'hang around' a bit :)
  • Drew
    Daniel,

    Just curious, but, how often is it that you consume meat, or animal products for that matter?

    Thanks

    -Drew
  • Jolie
    Hello Daniel,
    That video of the man hunting was very powerful. It was painful to watch that beautiful animal with the soulful eyes die....yet so touching and empowering to see the man give thanks for the animal. I do research on food because I want to be healthy, but I also want to do what is right so it is difficult and confusing for me. I have been watching the Raw Food World and other raw food TV and the individuals involved in the shows look so healthy and they seem so happy, it appears we don't need to eat meat. I have tried vegan diets, fasting, etc., but I always come back to eating meat. And it makes me feel guilty because I love animals. Being human, we have a conscience so we take ethics into consideration (some of us do). Part of me thinks that killing animals for food is a part of life, but we don't want it to be that way because it is painful. However there are many painful aspects of life whether we like it or not. I sound like I'm rambling here (sorry)...so I'll just say thank you for your work and trying to find balance.
  • Brian
    Yes! Thank you Daniel!

    Hippocrates said 'One man's food is anothers poison'. Base ALL things on results first, beliefs second. We must test... and assess. Ask questions, assume nothing.

    I don't necessarily buy into the fact that all plant based foods are catabolic (cleansing) and animal based foods anabolic and not cleansing. It's again placing a label on foods... and once we make labels, the opposite point is taken by some (which is partially to blame for the ethical/superiority argument of veganism etc amongst other things). It's also a very large stretch to say we 'know' what is happening from the biochemical perspective when certain foods are ingested. All we have is associations, which are VERY individual.

    I think the most important factor not discussed here regarding food - (omnivore, vegan etc) is belief. If I QUESTION ALL THINGS and truly base my results of experience, then whatever eating method is found to bring me the best results and I believe to be true is the one that will bring ultimate health/vitality. It's now what we do, but how we do it and what we believe about it.

    The thing that makes us human is our unique ability to adapt to our environment.
  • whiteclouds path
    thanks 4 the download...mmm i always enjoy keeping a open mind to others ideas. i do not keep much friends thoughts where i sleep, there used to be a sign a long time ago, before paved roads/ //////////////it said choose your rut wisely, i'll be in it for the next ten miles. /////////////////////////
  • meatnpotatoesforlife
  • Stephen Hylander
    Daniel, I agree with most of what you said....except for the part about how cooking made us human. This is absolute nonsense and has no real scientific basis whatsoever. I can point out to the MANY flaws related to cooked foods. Let me point out just a few:

    1. We have not fully adapted to a cooked diet. There are just way too many toxins created by the cooking process. And I'm not talking in the sense of the dogmatic raw vegan foodism. I am simply pointing out indisputable scientific facts. Our bodies, for example, have receptors to combat small amounts of AGE's (advanced glycogen end products), but the amount of AGE's that are formed in cooked foods are much too great for our bodies to handle. They overwhelm and saturate our bodies and cause disease, including premature aging. Remember, we're not talking about a small amount of AGE's, we're talking about the AGE count increasing by the thousands once you cook food. Here is one (of many) good study on AGE's and cooked foods:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pu...

    2. AGE's are not the only toxins that cause premature aging and disease. When you cook protein, fat and carbs together, carcinogenic chemicals form that are extremely toxic. Another good example would be Heterocyclic Amines. Heterocyclic Amines are formed by protein and creatine reacting under higher heat. Researchers have identified 17 different HCAs thus far. Other carcinogenic chemicals that have been identified include Nitrosamines, Acrylamide (found in baked/grilled starches), PAHs/polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (formed in smoked and cooked foods), etc. I can go on.

    3. Also, keep in mind that oxidized cholesterol, NOT raw cholesterol, causes heart disease/arterial plaque. In fact, our bodies don't have receptors for raw cholesterol, ONLY oxidized cholesterol, which, again, shows us that it is a natural defense mechanism. Oxidized choelsterol sticks to your arteries, unlike unoxidized, clean cholesterol. Might I also talk about the MANY toxic, highly carcinogenic compounds that are formed by oxdized/heated cholesterol?

    4. And let's talk about protein digestibility. Various studies already show that protein digestibility is actually reduced by heat, but that's just one problem. Yes, proteins need to be denatured so that they can be broken down into amino acids by enzymes and absorbed by the body, but the problem is, when you heat protein, it is denatured through heat, not stomach acid. Is there actually a difference? Yes there is. "Denaturation" (of protein in stomach) is a technical term used in biochemistry that makes unfortunately things ambiguous in present context because it suggests that is not a normal entirely natural phenomenon in stomach with intact raw proteins. A protein in a cell is a long chain of amino acids that folds in a very specific 3-dimensional structure in its active form (as an enzyme or an hormone receptor for instance). In stomacal acid environment (pH as low as 1.5), this chain usually unfolds so that it can bind to the digestive enzymes and be cut into its amino acid pieces.
    This kind of denaturation is just unfolding. It's used by biochemists because the protein loses its "nature" i.e. its 3-dimensional structure that makes it active (as an enzyme for instance). This MUST be carefully distinguished from what heat does to the same protein which is much much more. Heat unfolds the protein, sure, BUT it also damages heavily the protein by binding it to other biomolecules such as sugars, damaging the various amino acids by cutting off or pasting to other things, racemizing and isomerizing them (same formula but different atomic arrangement), etc. The result no longer fits well to the enzymes designed for intact protein chain handling on the one hand (impaired digestion) and once more or less digested the free amino acids are damaged (impaired future utilization in protein synthesis or neoglucogenesis). So, in other words, these amino acids are damaged and the body and has to work hard to not only get rid of them, but digest them by making different enzymes to digest damaged proteins, rather than just digest natural, intact proteins that it's original enzymes can recognize.


    Here's a reference which show that cooking reduces protein digestibility of meats:-

    "From Oste [1991], heating (above 100°C, or 212°F) decreases meat protein digestibility. Frying chickpeas, oven-heating winged beans, or roasting cereals at 200-280°C (392-536°F) reduces protein digestibility.

    Seidler [1987] studied the effects of heating on the digestibility of the protein in hake, a type of fish. Fish meat heated for 10 minutes at 130°C (266°F), showed a 1.5% decrease in protein digestibility. Similar heating of hake meat in the presence of potato starch, soy oil, and salt caused a 6% decrease in amino acid content."

    taken from:-

    http://www.beyondveg.com/tu-j-...

    The simple fact is, we have NOT fully adapted to a cooked diet. How come no other animal cooks their food? How come only we cook our food? Because it's not natural. Lions don't cook their meat and deers don't boil their grass before eating it. Now I am not going to tell people what they need to do, but if people want ideal, NOT good health, they should consume a diet of at least 80% raw plant AND clean animal foods. Herbs can be cooked and boiled because the medicinal components alone are being isolated and the undigestable matter is not being consumed. So you're just basically drawing out and isolating free-compounds, which is fine. You can also gently steam vegetables, but, liek I said, for the most part, a diet high in cooked foods will lead to premature aging and disease quickly and no tonic herb will stop this in the long run. Herbs only supplement your diet so that they fight disease and make you live longer, ONCE YOUR DIET IS IN CHECK. Raw animal foods, such as raw eggs, meat, dairy, and fish is very nourishing and you're not getting flooded with large amounts of toxins, such as AGE's. BTW, better stop those omega 3 fish oil supplements and switch to fermented cod liver oil, raw eggs, fish and grass fed beef for omega 3's because rancid DHA and EPA is just as bad as trans fat and oxidized cholesterol.

    So, in closing, I'd like you, Daniel, to do some research on the "raw paleo diet" because that is the most natural and original diet for man. Throw in some tonic herbs and you have something magical.

    Steve
  • Insect-a-licious
    This is interesting - although I'm curious if you have looked at how insects might play into all of this. Humans around the world likely survived on insects at times when game and fresh plants were not available.
  • What a prat, you don't respond to your emails, remove my comment, obviously your 1% view of the world is accurate, have you never heard of the saying 'the past does not equal the future', clearly looking at old cave drawings and because in the past races, cultures have hunted is not necessarily a precedent for the present or future. In the age we are in where you could basically sustain yourself off pills and potions, killing for your feeling of completeness and sustainence is mighty evolutionary of you...if you look at the word diet....the biggest part is die followed by a cross. Choose love and live it,,,get to know an animal....you may learn something beyond vegan or carnivore, do you actually have to define or limit yourself to a label of how you eat?
    Did you ever see that film of the Indian boy who went off on his trek to discover his path, narrated by Peter O'toole, and he befriended a supposedly rogue lion at one of the villages...that's the future I hope for where fear is confirmed as false expectations appearing real...and the spirit of life and communion with ALL is natural and extensive, to an interactive level with animals, the power is in your hands to change life. I'm sure you'll delete this so enjoy your 1% world...go and hunt something that can shoot back at ya

    LOve love love
    the bodhitorque man
  • Stephen, I'm not on either side, I think you are also being stiff... (if Daniel is being such, which I don't think so, I've watched him evolve, this is where he's at today)

    You, I, no one, has come up with all the answers, if we are honest we'll tell the truth and say we are on a journey, one with an intended destination that has not true end...

    Listen friend, although the idea of the lion lying down with the lamb and swords being beaten into plows is nice, it is a religious dreamy idea, one I believe is far beyond the reach of reality... can some live that way, sure, will this world become that way this lifetime, not a chance, evolution doesn't more that fast, no quantum leaps will occur, no not even in 2012...

    This is not a public place, yes it's a forum, but it's Daniels... I have one of my own and although I never got to see what you wrote Daniel apparently didn't feel it fit this venue.. This is his prerogative...

    If you want to be heard start a blog, it takes ten minutes, go for it... You say you want to lie down with the animals, but you seem to have much anger against this human being, if you can't love your own kind I find it silly to think you're going to save the world...

    Listen Daniel is a brave guy.. I know for I've done what he has, that is admit that my thinking has changed. He could have just stayed where he was, it was safe there, he had a huge following, the support to a community of Raw vegans, now he's getting his ass kicked.. good for him!

    As I said, I'm not on either side. I'm not dogmatic about my life, I trust my moment by moment intuitive arisings... Perhaps this is something we all need to do more of...

    be brave, be kind, be well...gi


    http://www.subtlethings.com
    http://changeyourmindchangeyou...
  • the bodhitorque man
    I think your video pretty much sums it up, at the moment of exhaustion there is a choice.... what really sustains us are the elements, Love being One of them, the crown jewel I guess you could say, I envisage a day when we commune freely with animals without the need for predestrian ways, affluence among all beings is kinship, speak to brothers and sisters that are 'with soul' from the latin meaning of animal.....anima being 'soul'.......and the way is of your choosing
  • SoothingVibrations
    Daniel,

    Why do you focus on only the four elements? Are you into the Chinese perspective of the five elements (water, fire, wood, metal and earth)?
  • I think we all needed to "hear" that... thanks!!!
  • Very cool!!! I think we all needed to hear that!!! Thanks!!!
  • robtew
    Here's a great video on five chimps working together to take down and kill a monkey (their dinner). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
    Enjoy everyone!
  • Here's a video that's speaks to some of what I've written... Its not about food... Its about saving our planet...

    http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/...
  • RogueAlchemist
    Thank you soooo much for your commitment to truth and your empowering and inspiring way of sharing.

    My path runs parallel to yours in many ways. I too stuck to a raw vegan approach (actually many raw vegan approaches, trying to find "the right one") for far too long (9+ years for me) and am now confidently healing and rebuilding from that stint. I can tell that I damaged my eyes, nerves, teeth, hair and endocrine system, at least. I am very grateful that I didn't have children during that experiment, as it would be heart breaking to birth a child into such a weakened condition.

    It is sad and scary (and a call to action) to be outside of that box looking in and seeing people parrot the same old vegan party line banter that, yes, I am guilty of in the past. Those of us with strong wills are likely the worst when we've got tunnel vision.

    I noticed that on www.OneRadioNetwork.com recently (3/25/10) that Patrick Timpone asked Brian Clement (at about 48:48 into the interview) about his take on Weston Price's work. Brian went off to say that the original work put forth by Price Pottenger (using this as a person's name, not the foundation; he didn't even know that they are 2 separate people who studied very different things) was supporting veganism originally, which is clearly absurd to anyone who has read even a little bit of Nutrition and Physical Degeneration (Brian clearly hasn't, or if he has he has deleted it from his memory).

    It is my prayer that others snap out of that trance before they really hurt themselves or worse, their children.

    I am forever grateful for you for bravely venturing out ahead and being a powerful beacon of light for me and countless others, and bringing forth products like Colostrum and Elk Antler to support us in true regeneration.
  • Thank you soooo much for your commitment to truth and your empowering and inspiring way of sharing.

    My path runs parallel to yours in many ways. I too stuck to a raw vegan approach (actually many raw vegan approaches, trying to find "the right one") for far too long (9+ years for me) and am now confidently healing and rebuilding from that stint. I can tell that I damaged my eyes, nerves, teeth, hair and endocrine system, at least. I am very grateful that I didn't have children during that experiment, as it would be heart breaking to birth a child into such a weakened condition.

    It is sad and scary (and a call to action) to be outside of that box looking in and seeing people parrot the same old vegan party line banter that, yes, I am guilty of in the past. Those of us with strong wills are likely the worst when we've got tunnel vision.

    I noticed that on www.OneRadioNetwork.com recently (3/25/10) that Patrick Timpone asked Brian Clement (at about 48:48 into the interview) about his take on Weston Price's work. Brian went off to say that the original work put forth by Price Pottenger (using this as a person's name, not the foundation; he didn't even know that they are 2 separate people who studied very different things) was supporting veganism originally, which is clearly absurd to anyone who has read even a little bit of Nutrition and Physical Degeneration (Brian clearly hasn't, or if he has he has deleted it from his memory). It is my prayer that others snap out of that trance before they really hurt themselves or worse, their children.

    I am forever grateful for you for bravely venturing out ahead and being a powerful beacon of light for me and countless others, and bringing forth products like Colostrum and Elk Antler to support us in true regeneration. I am proud to be your brother.
  • Dfowler351976
    hey man, your post convinced me again not to buy into tunnel vision or dogmatic thinking.  We still seem to have such a poor understanding of how in theory certain things should make sense when applied to human health, and science, although I swear by it, has horrifically failed us, see my rambling former posts...failed us in their tunnel vision approach. The lesson to be learned is simply, there is so much we don't know, and most crucial the most advanced nutritional tests, I seriously doubt could really provide an "algorithm" diet, as the human body and brain are constantly in flux adapting, to itslef, it's envirionment,  that's why I'm starting to see the quackery in everything, and just going to not do anything really unhealthy, if I can.  Basically we're not there yet for things like many diseases that can't be cured through diet, and finding the secrets to longevity or anti aging, assuming that is even a desirable thing. 
  • @boogafish.... ethical? To rationalize the situation, to say that offering the cow sunshine before you kill them will somehow change the situation, to think that the farts of cows in the sunshine is any better than the farts from the others is nonsensical.

    The whole idea and economy of raising livestock for consumption is nasty, the economy of raising them, the feed, the land, the transportation is all out of wack, and takes more from this earth then it returns and for me that it the test of anything.. Is It Sustainable? The answer to this question is NO!

    We will never live in a world where everyone is ten minutes from a small cattle ranch and so the whole scenario is wrong... Now if you apply your thinking to small vegetable and sprout farms, this can be done... this is being done now, it just needs to be supported and those small farm owners need to stop raping us with unreasonable prices...

    For me the problem with the whole mess is people's greed, not matter whose it is... Deer velvet for $140 an oz... Raw goats milk for $15 a gal, raw butter for $15 a pound... See capitalism, the greed fucks up everything..Take something sweet and mess with it, every little guy wants to get rich, every farm stop become a Whole Foods(that piece if shit store)...

    I was at a Wolfe lecture last month; they were selling $1.50 hemp snack bars for $6... Why? How many homes does Mr Avocado/the organizers need? This mindset will kill us all, this planet...

    I’m not a child, I’m 60yo, I worked in "real" food coops, lectured on food and saving the planet 35 years ago... back then this stuff was not only better for us, but “less” expensive the the dead stuff at the local supermarket, for people where just trying to educate and feed others, the local dairy farmer who sold me my raw milk was not trying to get rich off the "hippie kids," he were just was happy to sell a few gallons of milk in its raw form...

    People, think less about the food and more about your mind and the world you perpetuating by supporting this abuse. Speak up, don’t buy overpriced rip off product even if you can afford it, wake up and understand what is going on, what the game is. Don’t feed into it, instead control it with the dollars they want, if you say no, they will change... If you say no you will change...

    Be well...smiles...gi
  • Dfowler351976
    Gabriel I share your rage, this world is f'ed up, becuase of greed, greed, and lack of thinking that you don't need to be the posterchild for western civilization, or be like all the heroes we are brain washed to want to be like, this damn country, which like Daniel might agree with is just land, taken away from indigenous Native Americans, by tight assed puritan ultra religiouslys obsessed, a holes, and some how that later turned into America, our forefathers had some fine ideas, sure and as someone who dislikes religion for perosnal reasons, I greatly appreciate the secular nature of many of these guys.

    But America from my limited memory capacity became a bunch of egomaniacs, but in a much more obnoxious and aggressive way than in other Eurpean countries.  Without attempting to give a terrible history lesson, I will say the damn basics, like most countries back then no one even knew the concept of health, I'm sure there were some who thought they were becoming helathy by drinking tiger blood, and the planet has a poor record of understanding teh scientific method, and being able to apply that to human beings, much less any sentient creatures.  But I digress.

    We can't fault our ancestors for figuring these things out, as progress takes time, and we didn't have internet, phones, obvious stuff like that.

    But somwhere along the line was it the days of the mythologised wild west, and manifesdestiny?  Or was it before that, I have no clue, but somewhere along the line we started becoming cowboys, and then oil barrons, and then how we ended up today is a mystery.  Scholars love to make links as to why this became that, but it's really the explosion of the media, or tv, that started to get us star struck obsessed with making it big, and thus the American dream, how that got so bastersized as in what has happened to the point where we have shear evil human beings not able to share their 20 million in profits, the war machine, (rouuted in our counries warring ways,) and then all the wasteful money that has collapsed parts of the worlds ecoonomy because Americans like to make money as a sport.....so where did we forget to care about longevity?  Did we really not understand the basics? 
  • Gabriel/Santbir: I'm curious, what do you eat that doesn't involve death?
  • Everything involves death but I promise I do not eat meat, honestly twice a year at most... I sometimes eat eggs, sometimes raw dairy... I am for the most raw vegan, super foods, and herbs.
  • boogafish
    Is a vegan or even a vegetarian diet more ethical?

    I would say YES if we were living in 1890, well before the advent of factory farming and cow-concentration camps.

    But today, in 2010, I'm not so sure. To support family farming and grassfed beef, enabling cows to live a life of sunshine and pasture and fresh air instead of torture and misery IS A NOBLE THING TODAY.

    And when we support family farms, we open the door for humanity to exit the hell we fester in. Realistically, very few of the cornfed beefeaters are ever going to become raw vegans. So for them to start living more ethically, it's going to mean that they transition to eating meat from animals living in humane environments.

    Let me tell you a story--

    Where I live, it's nothing but fat slobs who eat turd-fed bacon (yes, they feed pigs turds) three meals a day. NOBODY is a raw vegan.

    Well, we have a family farmer outside of with grassfed beef, raw Jersey milk, pastured chickens, etc. He's struggling to make it. Slowly, people are beginning to order from him, and given enough time, he will become profitable. But as of today, he's still struggling. So is it more ethical for me to turn a blind eye from my neighbor to eat a raw vegan diet and then order superfoods from Indonisia in order to supplement all the deficiencies which a vegan diet causes me? If I do, and watch my neighbor's farm crumble out of business, what alternative will the cornfed beefeaters in my city ever have but to continue down their path of destruction? How ethical is that?

    One day, when factory-farming is a thing of the past, I think we can then talk about the ethics of eating meat vs. vegetables. Until then, we live in the reality of now and in order for us to end the the misery of the factory farm, we must support the family farm.
  • Dfowler351976
    wow that makes me want to cry for the poor farmers of this world, and the world has become poor now for everyone.  So many problems, yes I'm mercury sick, sick from big pharma drugs taken when I was young and didn't have much of an option.

    Not to derail the topic, but how do we stop the mass marketing of a toxic lifestyle?  How do we stop dentists from poisoning our teeth with mercury fillings?  From unecessary tests, dangerous over use of X rays, electroshock, which I was duped into having that further destroyed my brain, and left me permanently brain damaged.

    Through my struggles, and I am very sick now, I have realized the horrors of modern medicine, and how it does so much more harm than good, yet the Catch 22 we need it for obvious reasons!  Can you imagine 200,000 deaths per year due to pharma drugs, mostly NOT from overdoses just bad reactions. how to stop "bad medicine" the greed of the medical industry, the close mindedness of any new ideas, the ego driven doctors who talk down to the sick, and often make them feel worse for daring to be unhealthy...or chronically sick.  Yes this is certianly routed in Darwin like status problems routed in our DNA, something I used to know a little bit about.

    I live in Boston Ma, or near it, supposedly the "best" hospitals in the country, yea for some things like complex operations, saving stroke victims, heart attacks you get the idea, I'm sure everyone knows this too well, but yet the very vaccinations have done horrible damage, and this is exceptionally hard to get real data on, but the fact that we have thousands of documented cases of acute poisoinings such as autism etc as a direct result of in this case vaccinations. shows the gravity of the problem.  How some toxins are "exponenitally" worse to the system than others.  If that guy can eat a bicylcle and survive,- haven't looked into metal eaters,- but a vaccination can lead a kid to be autistic, then it becomes obvious that there needs to be a 99% movement, against the FDA, big pharma, and hospital indusrial complex.  Sure protesting financial inequalities is key to be able to just surive and get access to whole foods and so on, but there needs to be a mass movement, of ending, somehow, bad medicine profit over person.

    So being in the psyche system after an acute psychosis that just so happened after my mercury fillings were first put in, (a common cause of psychosis) it took me years to realize that I did not have a traditional mental illness, but I sure was mentally ill!  They, like all seriously ill psyche patients gave me powerful brain and organ damaging neruotoxic antipsychotics, and I was so messed up it wasn't until I started learning the 1000 plus side effects for these class of drugs, including mostly really serious/deadly ones, that I naturally became furious at becoming a victim again, then the Electroshock, this kind of systemic damaging of people thought to be mentally ill, is the norm, not the excpetion, for those who don't know how this industry works.  So people get depressed, they gvie them an SSRI, it makes them worse in some way, appeal to authority is powerful, and the doctors make much better sales people than doctors, as they duped my dad who is one of the highest regarded electrical engineers, working in NASA's hey day, into thinking shock therapy is totaly safe. 
     
    Of course my experience as labeled "mentally ill" is a common prejiduce that destroys people's souls, minds, and health, and in the end, if Daniels ruled the world, we would have much less mental illness, and the ones that became genetically mentally ill, for lack of better wording, would be free to use nature to heal, not neurotoxins, shock therapy, and psychoprisons, which we are all too familar with.

    So yes I have studied the history of psychiatry, it's some of the most evil s**t brought about by big egos, starting with Freud, and our insatiable fascination with using human beings as guinea pigs for what has turned out in all cases to be horrible treatments.

    If anyone is interested in the history of psychiatry from a truthful perspective go to Mindfreedominternational.org
  • Virgomomaz
    WELL SAID!!!
  • SoothingVibrations
    Thank you Daniel for bringing a balance to what we eat. It is true, a diet of raw foods is a very cleansing one in both the physical, mental and spiritual realm to get us out of conditioning we grew up with in the Western world. So once we cleansed, we MUST build from the ground up to take responsibility for the planet that we have messed up. We can't be cleansing forever. It's all about balance.

    After understanding that what goes into my body has a profound effect on me, I have become more curious about elemental nutrition. You mentioned in your post about creating a world where the soil, air and water are all clean and pure, and allowing the FIRE of the sun to interact with the other elements to create life.

    Re-Connection to the flow of the earth has been profound for me. You talk about food and water all the time in your posts and discussions. How can we incorporate ALL the elements into our lives to really achieve a balance?

    -SoothingVibrations
  • madhuriflynn
    Hey Daniel
    Thanks you for this great post :-)...

    Oh yes it is only food. I often quote you "We are the only species that needs someone to tell us what to eat".

    So much thought and energy gets put in to food, it is so imbalanced, there are so many greater things we could be putting our dynamic energy into, instead of "FOOD FIGHTS" tee hee.

    Stay alined with the whole and the actions will be beneficial, intuition will guide each individual to what is right for them. Celebrate when you have found A way rather then THE way.

    OM
  • Personally I don't think death has to be part of the scenario. Again for me, animal products that don't require killing can support life very well along with veggies, fruits, berries, nuts and seeds...

    BTW... the b12 that is found in veggies come from the fertilizers used (animal waste) in nature the same veggies would not produce B12... mmm enjoy... gi
  • Read Lierre Keiths Vegetarian Myth Gabriel for a clear explanation of what goes into big agra farming. Yes, hint, it does involve death.. and not just of animals, humans too.
    sorry
    Unless you grow all your own food, you have killed something.. not on purpose, but it is the way things work in our messed up food system.
  • I agree, as a Buddhist this topic comes up often, how we cannot lay a foot on the ground, or breathe a breath without killing... It's all about our intention the karmic load things carries... I try to live my life awake, clear of what I do and what I don't and where my path should take me. This is all we can ask...

    My journey into vegetarianism began long ago, my father owned two butcher shops in NYC, I read this book while on tour with a rock band, the story was over for me...

    The Jungle by Upton Sinclair...

    http://www.amazon.com/Jungle-Enriched-Classics-...

    If you read my site, my story, and blog you'll find I ate everything raw including meat when I found my healing. I realize food all foods have their place in health and healing, my commentary is on us humans, what we do to innocent creatures and to ourselves, our children, and this sweet earth...

    http://www.subtlethings.com
    http://changeyourmindchangeyourbody.blogspot.com/

    Be well my sweet friend...
  • madeline
    I used to have the belief pattern that we should forgo and boycott animal products to save the world... but the fact is that in order to free the farmers from the clutches of the food production industry, and expose the truth of mass production and the exploitation of animals we have to suppot small pastured raised grass fed farms who have integraty! By practising resposible omnivory we can change the food systems to far more creater heights than veganism ever could.
  • Starlight Whisperer
    Love the post Daniel.

    Here are a couple of points worth considering:

    I have heard that if we are host to an optimal variety of bacterial culture in our guts that they are capable of producing the b12 that we need to survive. That being said, I feel that eating eggs, honey, and occasional meat is important especially depending on where you live.

    Here's my rationale. In this community, the focus tends to be on an anthropological study of the past to determine our ideal diet. I can appreciate that and feel it has its place. But, what about the future and preparing our bodies for what may be in store for us? That to is a valid and equally important consideration in determining our ideal diet for today. We don't often speak out about this but I am sure many of us our thinking about it.

    For example, someone living in the tropics would be wise to eat sweet fruits and what is growing wild around them, maybe even some bugs, and dirt and may for all intents and purposes be able to thrive on a mostly vegetarian/vegan diet (except for the bugs).

    However, in my situation living in central Canada, it would be wise for me to start including more berries, wild greens, and animal products because if all of the supports around me fell away I would need animal products to survive but wouldn't get them often. I would, however, like my body to be able to process them and make use of them. If I never ate them today, I would struggle with them tomorrow. For me that means eating eggs minimally once every 2 - 3 weeks and meat 2 - 3 times a year. But, that is significant and important.

    Essentially I would say I am about 80 - 90% raw and 80 - 90% vegan and it seems like a much more balanced and level headed approach.

    Hope I have given you some food for thought.

    Blessings.

    - I personally feel a middle ground approach is ideal and maybe as well as looking to the past to determine the diet we should be eating I would also like to offer a new perspective of looking towards the future. I know we seldom speak of it and there seems to be a bit of a taboo about it but, if all of our supports systems feel away and we were left on our own in our environment, what would we eat, and how would we survive? I think that this is important for ultimate health because we need to be prepared for the future.

    From this perspective we need to consider the environment we currently live in. For example, I live in central Canada. So, likely I would be eating the wild food in my yard and surrounding area as well and the berries, apples, veges I plant, grasses etc. As well, we have a lot of wild rabbits around here so, maybe it would be wise to start eating rabbit on occasion? Also bison.

    I would say I am 90% raw and about 90% vegan. I think that makes sense. I eat eggs on occasion (once every 2 - 3 weeks) and I eat meat on occasion (once or twice a year). I think it's important if only so that my body is accustomed to eating meat so I am prepared for the future. Gaining skills is important too.
  • My pathology professor announced one day "It's like your mom would tell you, if you hang out the the wrong people you will get a bad reputation, so it is with Cholesterol" Think about it...

    smiles..
  • Lin_Zurich
    Hey Daniel,

    Why is it, I wonder, that you begin your post by espousing the wisdom of unity and synthesis of views within the community, but then turn around and entitle it with such an obviously polarizing phrase as Vegans vs. Carnivores?

    You generally communicate with such clarity, and yet your choice of words here seems to send quite the mixed message.

    Although you say you're motivated by the ideal of balance, my sense is that you're not at all adverse to giving the pot a good stir. Nor does it seem as if your real aim here is to avoid inciting some controversy and conflict.

    I don't mean to imply, however, that this is necessarily a bad thing. On the contrary. It can actually be very beneficial, since being exposed to impassioned exchanges between those with wildly differing viewpoints actually has the potential to serve as a powerful tool for helping to bust through many of our most ingrained paradigms of thought, emotion, expression and behavior.

    And in the end, isn't that what we're all here for?...to have our conditioned and concretized ways of being challenged to the point of being shattered? Seems to me that this is just what needs to happen with all of us if we are to truly evolve - with broader vision, heightened awareness and greater consciousness - past the limitations our ossified habit patterns impose upon us and the world we create.

    Even though many folks will only dig their heels in further in their opposition to your views on being carnivorous/omnivorous vs. being vegan, no doubt this whole discussion will actually help to cause the minds of others to become more open, and to look at this issue from a new and different perspective.

    So thanks for speaking out, Daniel. I appreciate you standing up for what you feel is true, for sparking people to think outside the box and push the boundaries of our ways of being, and for helping to encourage new vistas on the ways in which we may best nourish and purify these earthly human vehicles.
  • Guest
    Great post Daniel. Always ends up showing us that we are unique individuals and need certain foods at different times. In the long run, finding balance will keep us sane, balanced and nourished.

    Oh, found this interesting take on Omnivory, certainly this person is not about balance but more so for tipping the poles to the extreme.

    "If we had been 2 million years omnivore, we would be able to handle the cholestrol from animal foods but we clearly cant. Sure humans will eat anything to survive just as most animals will, but the frugivore diet is the one that provides 'surthrival'."
  • Lin_Zurich
    Actually we can handle cholesterol from animal sources just fine! Not only that, it's such an incredibly vital nutrient that without it we could not survive.

    Some day the truth will out more widely that the demonization of saturated fats and dietary cholesterol was one of the biggest and most damaging fallacies and greed driven cons of our time. Think about it - even though most people have bought into the whole 'low fat' insanity, avoiding saturated fat like the plague and taking statins out the wazoo, cardiovascular disease is still right up there at the top of the hit parade among the most prevalent chronic degenerative diseases afflicting and killing the general population in industrialized countries these days.

    Our bodies use cholesterol for various vital processes, but maybe most importantly, it's the precursor to the production of hormones such as estrogen, progesterone, testosterone and cortisol.

    With all the endocrine dysfunction, adrenal fatigue, low sperm counts and infertility going around, there's no doubt many people would benefit greatly from ingesting more dietary cholesterol!

    What most folks don't realize is that our ancestors and other present day indigenous cultures all over the world have traditionally sought out foods rich in this nutrient. Such foods have always been considered to be among the most valuable, and even sacred, often reserved for warriors, pregnant women and those who needed the most potent and nutrient dense nourishment possible.
  • ken

    Great article. One critique is that although the chart makes sense for theme of balance (omnivory) someone from a raw animal foods viewpoint would think this implies that healing and cleansing actually comes more from the vegetable spectrum or abstaining from even healthful animal foods and products.

    Another similar point, its true that all HG's cook some->much of their animal foods and live far healthier that many moderns could hope, but isn't that precisely why eating raw animal foods becomes more important? Rather than mimicing some kind of ancient speculative pre-fire way of eating it adds to anthropology measurable experiential data between raw and cooked.
  • Chris
    Great article as always Daniel, it's always great to hear your point of view. I became vegan 8 years ago after reading John Robbins' book, "Diet For a New America." It was very convincing to me. I became vegan primarily for the ethical aspect, not supporting factory farming etc. but also the environmental and nutritional aspect as well. So primarily my food choices are based on not causing any harm to any animals. So even if it is nutrtitional superior to eat animals I will try my best not to as I don't want to inflict pain and suffering upon them. But at the same time I am open to other people's point of view and enjoy hearing their side. The B12 question has always puzzled me. Vegan activists will just say to supplement; but of course that is not natural. There are anecdotal accounts of vegans getting their B12 from algaes and seaweeds. And perhaps even from the soil when we had gardens and grew our own food. You can point to people who have been vegan for a while like yourself and have not had success; but you could also look at people who have been vegan for a while who have had success and see what they are doing. People like Jameth Sheridian(Healthforce), Robert Cheeke(vegan bodybuilder), Scott Jurek(ultramarthoner), Brendan Brazier(ironman triathlete), Gabriel Cousens(Tree of Life), Brian Clement(Hippocrates Institute), David Wolfe(near vegan and raw food teacher), Aris La Tham(Sunfire Cuisine),Jericho Sunfire(fitness trainer). The list goes on and on. There are many people who are vegan for over a decade and are still healthy. Are there vegans who are unhealthy, for sure, but we shouldn't think of the vegan diet as unhealthy because some people on it are so. I have no doubt that eating some high quality animals foods can provide benefit. It is just not something I am ready to incorporate into my diet at this time. I do eat algaes such as spirulina and blue green algae, seaweeds such as kelp, dulse, sea lettuce and nori. I also take a DHA supplement derived from algae(where the fish get it). Thanks again Daniel for challenging my nutritional paradigms.
  • My friends... When choosing what we eat more needs be considered than vits, minerals, etc... From an oriental view each food has a yin or yang energy; some are hot, warm, cool, cold. One of the big problems with raw food and particularly raw vegan foods is that they are very cooling to the body, also case "damp" to accumulate, not a good thing. Now if one has a very hot/dry constitution then this diet might be a good idea for a while, but the wisdom of a diet such macrobiotic, (it has its problems too) is to daily be mindful of balance, the balance of our body, balance of our food.

    When people are chronically ill they often become very Yang deficient. This deficiency is only made worse through a raw vegan diet. If you have read my post above or visited my site and blog, you'll know I was dying and while on the raw vegan diet I continued to die although it did accomplish detoxing me of water soluble toxins, but until I went primal I did not get well. The toxins that were trapped in my tissue needed raw fat to purge it, more than was readily/practically available via nuts and seeds.

    Today I am neither; I eat as my body dictates. Dietary dogma will kill you, especially if you're dealing with a sick body. A young strong twenty year old can get way with a lot, but be careful, abuse is abuse and there is always a price to pay...

    smiles...gi

    http://www.subtlethings.com
    http://changeyourmindchangeyou...
  • Correction: I should not have said I'm a vegan except for the krill; I'm a beegan except for the krill -- so that even if I let go of the krill idea I still will not be what purist vegans consider vegan due to my use of bee products.

    I went back and forth about whether to be a meat eater or fish eater or not for many years. It was a dream I had that I was a crab being dropped in a pot of boiling water that pretty much has been a major influence on my feeling about eating fish. (As a crab I did not feel the heat but the suffocation was very palpable and I still remember the strong effect it had on me now 25 years after having the dream!!) As for meat, I was someone who grew up eating a lot of meat -- beef, pork, chicken, you name it -- and was really very addicted to it. I also went through living with vegans who did not want to ALLOW me to eat meat and I went through eating meat partly as a rebellion as well. But when all is said and done, now that I have overcome my addictive connection with eating meat I feel much better both physically and spiritually not eating it. I only speak for MYSELF however and do NOT look down upon people who choose to eat meat. For one thing, I am a blood type A which really NEEDS to forgo eating meat (and dairy for the most part) in order to live much past 55 or 60. I know it may be that it is much easier for me to be a beegan than it is for others. Who am I to judge? I have heard enough stories of people who found a regained health when they started eating meat again and I have to respect that as their truth. It is just not my truth for my own body.

    Excelsior!! (smile)
  • rawsangha
    Great topic, people should be talking about this more and with an open mind. I think the format for the dialog should be focussed on listening to one another rather than speaking. If "both sides" are good listeners then eventually the issue will resolve itself.

    Food and nutrition is dynamic and organically changing always. I'm Raw Vegan now in this moment... period. It works for me, I feel great there's nothing to talk or debate about. If a person another person wants to eat animal products, that's on them. Me on the other hand I choose to lead by example not by talking.

    I choose to walk the walk.

    If anyone is interested I posted an article with a similar topic a few weeks ago. "So You Wanna Date a Carnivore?" http://tinyurl.com/27hf8m9

    Peace, Love, Unity and Respect.

    -Brother Echo
    http://wwwrawsangha.com
  • I totally agree about the need to unite the two communities with our commonalities rather than fight over our differences! That is part of what being FREE people is all about, is making our OWN choices, after all...!

    You RAWK...!!! (I am vegan other than the krill oil I take at this point, but to be honest I am still not certain I am comfortable eating the krill and can discern zero difference in my health from using it so once this bottle is gone -- in a couple months -- I will test the waters of just using chia seeds and hemp seeds for the bulk of my omega-3s).

    One thing I might debate with you is your statement that we can get B12 only from animals. Is it not true we can get B12 from good clean non-GMO organic dirt? And possibly even bluegreen algae?

  • Virgomomaz
    it is possible to get b12 with "dirt" and algae. But as humans, is this how we are meant to get the b12...I raise goats, chickens, grow a large portion of my own veggies in the desert. I wuldn't dream of feeding my goats flesh of any kind...they are herbivores. To give them anything of that sort would make them sick. As ruminents, they manufacture b12. We do not. Period. The bio-availability of b12 supplementation is suspect. My chickens are most certainly omnivores! A "vegefed" chicken is crap...not only will they eat insects, they will eat baby wild bunnies (much to my shock and dismay), they will eat dead animals, and yes, they won't hesitate to kill each other in a weakened state and then eat eachother! These are not crazed caged birds, they run free on my property with organic grains as a supplement. Look at how we are all rationalizing how we eat. We are the only creature on this planet that do that...and we do a bad job of it. We are clearly omnivores, and we are adaptive. We can cleanse, build up, maintain, and complete the circle over and over again.
  • Lisa
    I like his black sneakers he is running in..
    whatever people take it to far...it all depends where u are at.I still prefer the Egyptian priests prespective...they are vege..not vegan...honey is considered sacred..I love it and goats milk...I eat plants with these things..it is actually a much bigger whole body discussion...it's so one way..primal meats..and all or vegans..to much flesh is not good either...and it depends on your spiritual disposition..YES it does..your body changes according to your mind..checmicals react differently..so if you are doing it just for diet..or a fad..going vege then dont bother you will fail..you really need to think and have your purpose in line with your heart of why you eat what you do..there is a shift in your body once your consciousness shifts..so all the failed ..love your animals peopel that it didn't work for them..well they need to ask honestly where there souls is at..to big to explain here...think about it..
  • Andrew
    An interesting read, Daniel.

    I was a strict vegetarian for about five years, and towards the end I started suffering from recurring infections in various places on my body — eventually I became depressed, lethargic, pale and I kept breaking out in sweats.

    My doctor advised me to start eating meat again, so I began with chicken and fish. It took a number of months but eventually I got back to normal.

    I don't think it's healthy to avoid eating meat and fish, after all, as you've already said in your post, we evolved as omnivores and that's just what we are. I think the problem is that many people eat too much meat. I still eat a vegetarian diet for the most part, but twice a week I incorporate meat and fish into my diet.

  • Interesting post, Daniel.

    As a longtime vegan who returned to omnivory--and ventured into hunting--I think there are important bridges to be built across the dietary issues that divide us.

    That section of footage from that Attenborough tape is a favorite of mine. Powerful and thought-provoking.
  • This is a piece I wrote for my blog... You'll find it took balance to save my life... Enjoy...gi


    It took me four years full time to get well... What I did was the exact opposite as what I saw (through much meditation, asking, and honest introspection) had brought me to my knees... Physically and in prayer...

    The day after my first diag I closed my business, went on a fast, joined a Zen group, and literally turned my world upside down. Coming from a technical background where I had trouble shot $60K pieces of video gear day in and out, designed studios, etc. I said to myself "if I can fix them I can figure out wants up with me and fix me too.

    So I took my skills and went at my body, researched, asked, busted balls, spent all my money, then begged for free help, went away on retreats, fasted more, and in the mist of it signed up for a full load at college, which dismayed my friends and relatives, for in their mind I was dying and what the fuck was I doing in school. They thought I should go to Europe, Costa Rica, lay on a beach, instead I studied, sat on my pillow and meditated, became close to a qigong master, and traveled the country to find the best teacher, (in Brookline, MA I did) and travel there. One time I had to be emergency airlifted home, arriving at my acupuncturist near death, scarring the life out of him. They all thought I had lost it, but I knew in my knower what I needed to be doing, I knew it was mind, that my state of being had become sooo fucked up, I needed to rebuild myself from the inside out, to become literally a new creature... No not in Christ, but in me...

    I ate the wildest shit, I was raw for two years, lived on wheatgrass and sprouts, then soo thin I could hardly stand I knew I need to be nourished... I found a man who told me about the primal diet, a raw diet that included all foods... Meat, eggs, tons of raw butter, goat milk, cream, and raw greens... After 2.5 month on that I awoke... (let me say that for years I had bleed every day, I’d awake with blood on my pillow, my nose clogged with it, my bed soaked from nite sweats, I would sleep on beach towels to absorb the sweat, changing them many times each nite) that morning no blood in my nose, my bed was dry. I thought... hmmm oh how interesting... hee hee...

    This was the beginning... In the next two years I worked on my spleen (it was huge), rebuilt my body, continued my schooling, and just last this Sunday I received my Masters in Oriental medicine... I am now well, whole, educated, and positioned to offer hope and help to all those who are willing to go all the way to find their healing... Considering my quest, what I was willing to endure, I have little patience for those who whine and cry, saying I don’t like to eat that, do this... Fuck them! let them die (he says with a Buddha’s compassion) I say this for it's up to us what will happen, personal responsibility in of the utmost importance.. Too many people want things to be done "for them," few are willing to do for themselves..

    So that’s a thumbnail of what I did, the particulars will take a book which btw is in the works... All is well dear one... all is well... So be it...

    Smiles... gabriel

    http://www.subtlethings.com
    http://changeyourmindchangeyou...
  • As always, a balanced, ethical, sane, and metaphysically grounded exposition on a fiery (heh) topic. Thanks D!!!
  • have you seen the cries of pain in the face of the poor animal in the last scene of the video?

    even if humans are omnivores (which i doubt), i still prefer no animal has to die for me.

    watch these videos, if you want to enlarge your perception of what's possible in the realms of nutrition:

    http://www.jerichosunfire.com

  • Jakob_Roze
    Thank you for trying to unite these communities. It is true whether practicing veganism or a primal diet there must be unity. I have been fletching my arrows the past few days and am looking forward to the hunt!

    P.S. Could you give me a new elixir idea i have been stuck on a really tasty cocao maca mesquite butter eggs ext elixir and feel i should prob add some variety. Thanks Daniel!
  • Dirk Feral
    Amazing Daniel! Thank you for talking about the common dietary confusions and bringing solutions to the omnivorous table.
  • danielvitalis
    The Latest from Daniel Vitalis

    Reflections on Japan

    Greetings Friends,


    _The time you take to read this quick newsletter is very appreciated - Thank
    You._


    If you are like me, you have been inundated with information recently about
    the possible health effects of the fall-out from the recent nuclear power
    plant/ tsunami disaster that impacted Japan just a few days ago.


    It appears that while Japan is facing one of its truly defining moments -
    Those of us in North America should encounter only diffuse radiation as a
    result of this accident. That said, it is very important that we use
    whatever methods we can to protect ourselves from this environmental threat.


    While it is critical that we _protect_ ourselves, there has been quite a
    sales frenzy around iodine and other related products that can help to
    buffer the effects of some of this radiation. For that reason, I offer this
    simple and short video regarding a simple at home remedy we can use to
    prevent detrimental effects of the nuclear radiation. [1]Click this link for
    the video.
    Links:
    1. http://DanielVitalis.us2.list-...


    If you are a “do it yourself” kind of person, you will appreciate this quick
    [2]video on how you can eliminate your fears about any potential radioactive
    iodine that we may be exposed to over the coming weeks.
    Links:
    2. http://DanielVitalis.us2.list-...


    I am getting ready to head right into LA in the next week for the
    [3]Longevity Now Conference, and am using this strategy to prepare myself,
    as it appears that some amount of radioactive “fallout” will be reaching the
    Southern California, probably as you read this.
    Links:
    3. http://DanielVitalis.us2.list-...


    I am speaking at the_ [4]Longevity Now Conference_ on _Friday, April 1st_,
    where I will be sharing a series of [5]important living strategies that not
    only build _robust_ health in our own bodies, but can also protect our
    _genetic integrity_ as we move into a brave new future as a species. The
    theme of this talk is “_Habitat_” and focuses on the environments we
    construct around ourselves - As well as the food, water, air, and light that
    we interact with daily. I will be sharing how we can re-create the
    environment around us that builds strong health and healthy genes, while
    avoiding the many pitfalls around us such as GMO’s, EMF’s, water pollutants,
    petro-chemicals and much more.
    Links:
    4. http://DanielVitalis.us2.list-...
    5. http://DanielVitalis.us2.list-...


    On the following _Monday, (April 4th)_ at the _Masters Workshop,_ I will be
    teaching an advanced _medicinal mushroom_ extraction class called _Secrets
    of Solubility_. I will be demonstrating the in’s and out’s of dual
    extractions for maximum adaptogenic potency and immuno-modulation.


    The September 2010 [6]Longevity Now Conference was one of the highlights of
    my year and this one is shaping up to be bigger and better. Purchase your
    tickets [7]HERE before this event sells out.
    Links:
    6. http://DanielVitalis.us2.list-...
    7. http://DanielVitalis.us2.list-...


    I really hope to see you there and more than anything, I ask you to remain
    _vigilant_ about your health and the health of your community, as we move
    ever further into a world fallen out of balance.

    Together we can _Rewild Ourselves and Rewild the Planet_!


    Thanks again for taking the time to read this and for your continued support
    of my work.


    ~Daniel

    [8]www.DanielVitalis.com
    [9]www.SurThrival.com
    [10]www.FindASpring.com
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    Contact Us
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  • danielvitalis
    A Free Interview, Some Controversy, and A Great Debate!

    _Hello Everyone_, and _Thank You_ for taking the time to read this e-mail.
    There are a couple of things I thought you would want to be let in on, but
    first I want you to know that you and your time are very much appreciated.

    I recently had the pleasure of being interviewed by my good friend and
    colleague, David Wolfe, and I thought I would send that interview out to all of
    you as a way of saying thanks for your support. [1]Just click here to access
    the full interview now.
    Links:
    1. http://DanielVitalis.us2.list-...

    David and I have been discussing the details of the upcoming [2]Longevity Now
    Conference, as we are both pretty excited about the event. Last year's event
    was amazing, and I can see that this one will be even bigger and better. I am
    spending the month preparing for my talks, and it is my intention to once more
    _test the boundaries of our current health paradigms_. Also, I have to admit
    that I am a bit of nervous, as many of you saw the spoof video that I made of
    David this last month, and I have no idea how he is going to get me back.
    Rumor has it it will happen at the Conference, so I am strapped in and ready
    for anything!
    Links:
    2. http://DanielVitalis.us2.list-...

    Last year there was over a thousand people at the Conference, and I suspect
    this one will be fully sold out soon (April 1st is coming right up!). If
    you just know you are meant to be there, [3]you can reserve your spot by
    clicking here. If you have never attended an event like this, I would
    highly recommend that you find a way to be there with us. This is the kind
    of experience that can catapult you into new areas of personal health
    development as well as initiate new behaviors in you that can result in some
    very powerful and effective lifestyle upgrades!
    Links:
    3. http://DanielVitalis.us2.list-...

    On another note... How about a bit of controversy? As many of you know,
    Vegetariansim vs Animal Food consumption has become the most hotly debated
    subject in the health food, wholefood, and rawfood communities. There are
    so many voices and even more opinions, so who's right?

    _Would you like to hear me debate some of the top Vegetarian experts in the
    world?_

    I recently participated in "[4]The Great Health Debate" where I had the
    opportunity to share my ideas and views on the subject. Also involved were
    world many world's most renowned personalities from the nutritional field,
    people like _T. Collin Campbell of the China Study, Dr Gabrielle Cousins, Dr
    Mercola, Mike Adams, Sally Fallon, David Wolfe, Robert Young, Donna Gates_,
    and many others. It was an honor to have the opportunity to share my
    message in the arena with all of these strongly positioned professionals. If
    you would love to get in on the action, and to hear what all the controversy
    is about [5]you can find it all here. Note: Each individual debate is airing
    for _24_ hours *_FREE_* and then becomes available for purchase.
    Links:
    4. http://DanielVitalis.us2.list-...
    5. http://DanielVitalis.us2.list-...

    Don't miss this one, its your chance to hear every side of the argument and
    decide for yourself where you stand! Its all in good fun, but the
    conclusions you reach could _change your life forever._

    As I mentioned before, _Thank You_ for taking some of your valuable time to
    read this email. As always I strive to be _respectful_ of your inbox, and
    only send emails when there is something I think or feel you may be
    interested in.

    Please take some time to visit me at my blog
    at [6]www.DanielVitalis.com where you can see my latest trip out foraging
    for Pink Peppercorns on the west coast of Florida.
    Links:
    6. http://DanielVitalis.us2.list-...

    I am wishing you all a _wonderful_, _productive_, and _rewarding_ end to
    your winter, and look forward to seeing you all this spring at the
    [7]Longevity Now Conference in April!
    Links:
    7. http://DanielVitalis.us2.list-...

    In Gratitude,

    ~D
    --
    Daniel Vitalis
    [8]www.DanielVitalis.com
    [9]www.SurThrival.com
    [10]www.FindASpring.com
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    About me: www.DanielVitalis.com

    Because of the</td></tr><tr id="facebook-profile-mainblock2"><td colspan="2" id="facebook-profile-maintext2" style="font-size: 11px;">5,000 maximum friend "limit" facebook appoints, please join my fan page at http://on.fb.me/9hH92X!</td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" id="facebook-profile-block" style="padding-top: 2px; height: 16px;">friend me!</td></tr></tbody></table>Latest Posts<ul id="facebook-posts" style="padding-left: 10px; margin: 5px;"><li style="margin-bottom: 5px;"><img align="absmiddle" src="http://b.static.ak.fbcdn.net/rsrc.php/yD/r/aS8ecmYRys0.gif" title=""></li><li style="margin-bottom: 5px;"><img align="absmiddle" src="http://b.static.ak.fbcdn.net/rsrc.php/yD/r/aS8ecmYRys0.gif" title=""></li><li style="margin-bottom: 5px;"><img align="absmiddle" src="" title=""></li><li style="margin-bottom: 5px;"><img align="absmiddle" src="http://b.static.ak.fbcdn.net/rsrc.php/yD/r/aS8ecmYRys0.gif" title=""></li><li style="margin-bottom: 5px;"><img align="absmiddle" src="http://b.static.ak.fbcdn.net/rsrc.php/yD/r/aS8ecmYRys0.gif" title=""></li></ul>
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  • danielvitalis
    See My Most Influential & Informative Lecture yet!

    The September 2010 LongevityNOW Conference DVD is available NOW!

    Greetings!

    I have been waiting for months now for the release of this amazing offer so
    that I could share it with all of you.

    Some of you may have joined us at the September 2010,[1] LongevityNOW
    Conference in Costa Mesa, CA last fall where I and fourteen of the world's
    top health educators shared our expertise. The conference was phenomenal,
    and full of health hungry community members. It was an inspiring,
    high-energy, and educational experience for everyone present.
    Links:
    1. http://DanielVitalis.us2.list-...

    Now, I have the opportunity to share with you this chance to purchase the 16
    DVD Series from the September 2010 [2]LongevityNOW Conference! This is so
    exciting for me because this DVD series contains my two must-see lectures
    from the conference! In my opening lecture I discuss_ 'Food Genetics and
    Eugenics'_ in a talk titled _"Indigenous Nutrition and Human
    Evolution"!_ The second I present the consolidation of several years of study
    on '_Water_' in _"Water Shamanism, Stewarding the Living Liquid Crystal"_.
    These lectures represent for me my latest and greatest work, and my
    'Eugenics' lecture is the most powerful and influential presentation of my
    career, full of empowering information that will leave you shocked, yet
    excited and determined to re-invent your health strategy. I feel it deals
    with some of the most important (yet almost totally overlooked) information
    facing the health seeker today. The DVD set is full of 20+ hours of
    exclusive live-recorded footage from the conference this past fall,
    including each speakers full length lecture. This includes information from
    David Wolfe, Dr. Mercola, Donna Gates, Frank Giglio, George Lamoureux, Truth
    Caulkins, and many more!
    Links:
    2. http://DanielVitalis.us2.list-...

    [3]You can purchase the September 2010 LongevityNOW Conference 16 DVD Series
    HERE! The DVD set is being offered at a very discounted price for a limited
    time now.
    Links:
    3. http://DanielVitalis.us2.list-...

    I want to share this offer with my supportive community members because I
    like to keep you all up to date with the latest that is going on in my
    world! I am excited to have my live lectures on DVD and accessible to
    everyone, especially those who were unable to be present at last year's
    event. The information provided in the DVD series is life-long supportive
    education that can help you, and everyone you know in profound ways.

    Your continued support and interest is endlessly appreciated!

    Bless,

    Daniel Vitalis
    [4]www.DanielVitalis.com
    [5]www.SurThrival.com
    [6]www.FindASpring.com
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    Connect with us:

    [7]Follow us on Twitter
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    Copyright (C) *|2011|* *|TEMPLE OF THE ELEMENTAL|* All rights reserved.
  • danielvitalis
    Email not displaying correctly? [1]View it in your browser.
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    _Exclusive Free Video Series_

    [2]Water Myths with Daniel Vitalis
    Links:
    2. http://DanielVitalis.us2.list-...

    This is a clip from my exclusive lecture at this past Fall's Longevity Now
    Conference in Costa Mesa, CA. In this video, I reveal insights about water
    that are rarely discussed in the world today and address topics such as:

    • The best water on the planet and how you can access it!
    • Why most water bought in stores is not much of an improvement from tap
    water.
    • How water is the only substance we encounter that exists as a solid,
    liquid, vapor, and what this means for your health.
    • The fascinating reason why you should never use hand sanitizers!
    • Why using flouride toothpaste actually makes your teeth weaker - not
    stronger.
    • The best and easiest way to detoxify the body.
    • A secret about the kind of water that is provided to you by bottled
    water companies.

    This is just an excerpt of the kind of information that will be available to
    you in the new Longevity Now Conference DVD which will be released on
    January 8th! This video content will not be available anywhere else and
    contains some of my most unique and latest teachings which I have not shared
    publicly yet!

    You can access my free video clip from the new Longevity Now Conference DVD
    [3]HERE. Enjoy!
    Links:
    3. http://DanielVitalis.us2.list-...

    I appreciate your interest and continued support of my work!
    Bless,
    Daniel Vitalis
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  • danielvitalis
    My pleasure Dirk!

    Eating meat with vegetables tonight for dinner.
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